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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

clownboy said:
The agricultural market argument is rank bull****. Predicated upon the specious presumption that farmers have an overproduction of goods. Are those farmers going to start producing more to meet the demand? Will more agricultural land magically appear? Is there agricultural land going fallow now, waiting for a greater market?
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Stating that some food to Cuba is already allowed, and that removal of these restrictions will make it even easier and have more opportunities with Cuba.. Yes, it is incredibly beneficial.

"It's hard to quantify just how much of a boost the planned changes will give to U.S.-Cuban agricultural trade, said C. Parr Rosson III, head of the agricultural economics department at Texas A&M University. But he predicted it could grow to $400 million to $450 million within a couple of years.

"That's just a back-of-the-envelope estimate on my part ... but the market can make those swings very readily," he said."
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/12/19/us/ap-us-united-states-cuba-agriculture.html?_r=0

Of course the Chamber wants it, they also are just fine with open borders.
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Do you dispute their numbers?
 
Fearandloathing said:
I am more than a little aware of Cuba's history...

What middle class in the 50's....it was a ****ing police state, slave labor was used in the Cane fields and the Mafia ran the whole ****ing country...it was the single largest jumping off point for heroin, cocaine and marijuana.

Those who talk about small, family owned businesses and **** are talking about a very, very small fraction of the country, most who "escaped" were well connected enough to buy their way out, or with the help of the mafia.
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You're wrong about this. Cuba's middle class also consisted of doctors, lawyers, small business owners who weren't connected to the mafia. Many of these people were forced to flee soon after the revolution. Entire neighborhoods in Habana City were left empty overnight. Many of the country's tourism workers also left, it wasn't just the owners and mafia dons who had a stake in the economy and many of the people who could afford to leave did so the moment Castro started nationalizing industries. Nobody is questioning that the country was a police state before and after the revolution, what I am questioning is the notion that one side owes the other more or vise versa.
 
Hatuey said:
You're wrong about this. Cuba's middle class also consisted of doctors, lawyers, small business owners who weren't connected to the mafia. Many of these people were forced to flee soon after the revolution. Entire neighborhoods in Habana City were left empty overnight. Many of the country's tourism workers also left, it wasn't just the owners and mafia dons who had a stake in the economy and many of the people who could afford to leave did so the moment Castro started nationalizing industries. Nobody is questioning that the country was a police state before and after the revolution, what I am questioning is the notion that one side owes the other more or vise versa.
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No I am not.

I have been there, seen the pictures and read the notes.

The idea you have been fed is complete bull**** to justify a scared little president who got called by a smarter Russian over missiles in Turkey.

The "embargo" is a farce. The people of Cuba are more free under a dictatorship than mafia run slavery.

You need to do some reading your government won't let you see...
 
US Conservative said:
Another Obama foreign policy success. :doh

Can someone explain what we got in return for this?
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What do we get? Exactly like the so-called Iranian deal: Nothing
President Moron is a terrible negotiator. Just add it to the list of things he sucks at.
 
Lursa said:
It's their business what freedoms they give their citizens. Not up to us. We dont dictate to China or Saudi Arabia, for ex, how to treat their citizens. We huff and puff but do little of substance. Our attempts at changes to human rights have taken years and have made no inroads in SA.

that doesnt mean I like the system in Cuba, just that it's hypocritical to consider it our business, both in general and there specifically.
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If they want the sanctions/embargos and such off, then they better start considering political reforms or the deal is OFF.
 
Ockham said:
But I can get that pretty much anywhere in the US. Dominican seed cigars are much better than much of the traditional cuban tobacco and hell.... the US lives on good and even great sammiches.
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It was a joke. I've never gone to Cuba for a Cuban sandwich. The underlying point was that there is nothing for us to gain by lifting the embargo except for another distraction.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
http://www.cubadiplomatica.cu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=IsdG-CVp5To=&tabid=21894
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It's an interesting document outlining the provisions for foreign capital, investments, etc... but not ownership. It shows that Cuba is open to outside country investments in Cuba but that isn't indicative of any type of movement away from their current form of government or politics. Was there a section specifically that you thought embodied a governmental shift away from socialism?
 
Lursa said:
So it's not about right or wrong, just what's convenient? And screw them if they dont have anything to offer us? Fine...then lift the artificial, useless restrictions that make us look even more weak (since they didnt work) and hypocritical.
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So lifting the embargo, to give Cuba what they want while getting nothing in return makes us "look" less weak to Cuba?
Is this your premise?
 
Lursa said:
For one thng, it's hypocritical and useless to do so.

And second, we look weak because we've been trying to 'use' our might thru isolation for decades and failed.
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Our president looks weak, and like an idiot for giving up everything and getting nothing back. He's a chump and the world knows this.
 
US Conservative said:
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago
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The Castros are not looking for reform or even better ties. All they are looking for is a grand western bailout of the regime in the form of American tourist dollars. When the USSR collapsed they were no longer propped up with phony sugar cane subsidies. That rancid piece of dung Hugo Chavez of Venezuela tried to fill the gap, but then he took a permanent dirt nap. The Castros are well aware that their authoritarian regime will not survive without either a sugar daddy propping them up or tourist dollars from the West. Communism is not getting it done. It is not the utopia they claimed it is.
 
Lursa said:
Didnt see a single, 'debunk.' LOL

People can write stuff, doesnt mean it's true.

And having a more open, prosperous country off our borders is certainly a greater advantage than the current situation.

We have failed for 50 yrs, now we can look magnanimous and make some moves that enable Cuba to open up economically and in terms of human rights. We arent forcing regime change, but making efforts that will enable it.
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Cuba is was a corrupt crap hole before chump obama eased up on them, and it will be after-its run by dictators. You could pump money into that nation and it would not help the average cuban a bit-and thats what you are supporting-helping the govt, not the people.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.
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Lolz that was funny. :lol:
 
sawdust said:
That's what happens when you don't understand the use of smart power in international relations. Obama opened up by bending over and letting Castro have fun with his ass and now Obama is trying to reclaim his virginity. That's not the way international relations works.
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Obama has been walking with a limp for some time now-and he appears to like it. Any 2-bit dictator can see this guy coming.
 
Lursa said:
It's their business what freedoms they give their citizens. Not up to us. We dont dictate to China or Saudi Arabia, for ex, how to treat their citizens. We huff and puff but do little of substance. Our attempts at changes to human rights have taken years and have made no inroads in SA.

that doesnt mean I like the system in Cuba, just that it's hypocritical to consider it our business, both in general and there specifically.
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If they want good relations with the US, it very much is our business. They are asking for all kinds of concessions while offering nothing but a prisoner swap in return. Freedom is a universal right. It is not the Castros to give or take away. They are authoritarian dictator thugs.
 
rocket88 said:
Your cartoon makes an interesting point, however I fail to see how continuing along the same path helps the average Cuban either. It would seem that they'd be better off getting American money. Opening opens up markets too, meaning more money flowing into Cuba and potentially to the average Cuban. The embargo sure hasn't made them free, has it?
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The average cuban will see none of that money-just like they have not until now from whatever income the nation gets.

The difference is now the corrupt leadership has more money. Thats what Obama is doing.
 
US Conservative said:
The biggest thing about Cuban cigars is that all of the tobacco is grown in the same place, but others have caught up. And I can get plenty of awesome cuban around here, from Cubans who love the US.
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The thing is all the Cuban families who owned the plantations fled to the Dominican Republic with their best workers. So really the Dominican cigars are what the Cubans were. I may have had a cigar from a certain country you mentioned in a nonspecific country to our north.

It was ok but not stellar
 
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