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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

Can you imagine Barack Obama buying a car like he lifted the Cuban embargo?

Oh the list price is 27,000, have a 33,000 is that a fair price for the car?

Oh sure thing Mr. prez and for just $50 more you can add the oil change insurance!

You sure that insurance isn't $75 more?

Yeah, we sure run a hard bargain!
 
How horrific. People aren't the personal property of their government. Feel free to be apathetic if you like but I would like my government to advocate for liberalism and democracy by whatever the most effective path is. Internationalism forever.

Exactly. The argument assumes that the very underpinning of US governing philosophy, natural rights, don't exist.
 
Cuba is beginning to dismantle its socialist system but it won't happen overnight. Cuban bureaucrats face the same problems Russian bureaucrats did when they dismantled the USSR, how to create a new Cuban bourgeoisie. It will be a long, patient degradation as private investment is allowed in and government assets are privatized, but it's pretty inevitable given how they have been running the country.

Could you provide some credible links that describe this dismantling of it's socialist system? I agree, such radical changes will take time - lifetimes actually - but I know of no credible dismantling taking place and I'd want to believe that is true.
 
Read the OP. Even if he gets anything from the talks (he won't) he'll have to get it by congress (he won't).

My point was it takes effort to enforce an embargo. Your response relates our internal political hardships of moving this forward. Not the constant monitoring of imports and exports from right off our shore.
 
Cigars and really good sandwiches.

But I can get that pretty much anywhere in the US. Dominican seed cigars are much better than much of the traditional cuban tobacco and hell.... the US lives on good and even great sammiches.
 
But I can get that pretty much anywhere in the US. Dominican seed cigars are much better than much of the traditional cuban tobacco and hell.... the US lives on good and even great sammiches.

And those fine wrappers that were used in Cuban cigars are found in CT. They are still produced here and go to many fine cigars around the world.
 
My point was it takes effort to enforce an embargo. Your response relates our internal political hardships of moving this forward. Not the constant monitoring of imports and exports from right off our shore.

We'll never stop monitoring imports and exports right off our shore, embargo or no. It takes virtually no effort to maintain the embargo. What requires effort at this point is changing that. And absolutely no good reason to do so.
 
Opening trade with Cuba does nothing whatsoever for us.
Not true.
"The US Chamber of Commerce opposes the embargo, saying that it costs the United States $1.2 billion annually in lost sales of exports."
https://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/legacy/testimony/090427tradecuba.pdf

" If the embargo were lifted, the average American farmer would feel a difference in his or her life within two to three years"
Jacksonville.com: Study says U.S. farmers losing from sanctions on Cuba 1/28/02

Not in image, we just look weak.
Nope. It makes us look like we are joining the rest of the world. Do I need to remind you on those 23 UN votes?

Not economically either, they'll just need aid.
Not true. See above.

And imports? They have nothing we need. Tin maybe, we already have plenty of that.
Also not true.
"US exports to Cuba could reach $4.3 billion (3.5 billion euros) a year, compared to less than $360 million last year, according to analysts at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. Cuban merchandise imports to the US could go to $5.8 billion a year - a big improvement from today's zero."
Businesses optimistic as US-Cuba relations thaw | Business | DW.DE | 18.12.2014
 
Oh good grief, stalk someone else.

Your lies keep piling up. I've been in this thread long before you showed up. When you showed up and started making up stuff, as you've been caught doing before, I pointed it out. If you don't like it, say so. Don't try acting like you're some poor victim of debate politic's relatively high standards for backing up your claims. You weren't just wrong, you literally made up history. :shrug:
 
We'll never stop monitoring imports and exports right off our shore, embargo or no. It takes virtually no effort to maintain the embargo. What requires effort at this point is changing that. And absolutely no good reason to do so.

Effort is required to maintain an embargo. It would be far easier to stop an embargo and let trade commence. You have done nothing to change my opinion on that. I will grant you that there is a political hurdle, but there is always a political hurdle.

An estimated 6,000 jobs in the agricultural sector could be made if the embargo were lifted.
http://www.afrocubaweb.com/news/cpfag.htmhttp://www.afrocubaweb.com/news/cpfag.htm

We are currently supplying Cuba with food (we are there 2nd largest supplier, and from the link above you see we can be #1). We could be supplying them with energy and medical supplies. There is a huge market that we are not touching. And for what? We don't like communism?
 
China has billions of customers and we really wanted into that market. We're talking about Cuba here and you still utterly fail in showing any sort of compelling reason to end their embargo.

11 million people who've never had the perks of living in capitalism is a good enough reason to end the embargo. Hell, ask any business if they wouldn't enjoy 11 million untapped customers 90 miles from the US. 11 million workers who wouldn't mind working for half of an union member's salary if not less. Now, China's ~1.3 billion (not billions) customers weren't there in 1972. The country was an economic mess thanks to Mao's cultural revolution. More importantly, the PRC never gave up ideological control of the country and the Mainland is still very much ruled by it. As such, political reform has never been that important to establishing relations with a nation. That makes you wrong on how many arguments now?
 
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago


I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.
 
I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.

Not so fast, Cuba also owes American/Cuban citizens for the appropriation of private American businesses during the revolution. This issue is a little bit more complicated than "we owe them" and "evil communists" rhetoric. Mistakes were made by both sides and both sides need to figure out a solution to these issues the affected people on both sides of the waters.
 
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago

That's what happens when you don't understand the use of smart power in international relations. Obama opened up by bending over and letting Castro have fun with his ass and now Obama is trying to reclaim his virginity. That's not the way international relations works.
 
I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.

Well, they could start by cashing our checks.
 
11 million people who've never had the perks of living in capitalism is a good enough reason to end the embargo. Hell, ask any business if they wouldn't enjoy 11 million untapped customers 90 miles from the US. 11 million workers who wouldn't mind working for half of an union member's salary if not less. Now, China's ~1.3 billion (not billions) customers weren't there in 1972. The country was an economic mess thanks to Mao's cultural revolution. More importantly, the PRC never gave up ideological control of the country and the Mainland is still very much ruled by it. As such, political reform has never been that important to establishing relations with a nation. That makes you wrong on how many arguments now?

Oh yeah, China's population in 72 was ONLY 892 million. And we all knew where that trend was going, they weren't going to get smaller. A market largely untapped by the West.

And no, 11 million on an island with resources we don't need is NOT a good enough reason to end the embargo.

And where did I say political reform was that important in general to establishing relations? IN THIS CASE, it's the only thing they can offer that would make it worth our trouble.

I know, you're invested emotionally in China and your image of it. Fine, let's not talk of China anymore, it drives you nuts apparently. Since this thread is about Cuba, let's talk about Cuba.
 
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I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.

No thanks to all of that.
 
What do you mean of course it will fix their situation? When Cuba gets more money (through its state owned business) who gets the money-the govt or the people? Plenty of western nations do business there now and its a crap hole. How would more money change that?

The only thing it does it allow the leadership to improve its security. Let me guess, you thought the "fair and equitable" commies were going to hand it out to the people of Cuba?

All communism does is make everyone equally poor and miserable (excepting the elites). And Obama is helping to do exactly that.
Cuba-Proped-600-LI.jpg

Your cartoon makes an interesting point, however I fail to see how continuing along the same path helps the average Cuban either. It would seem that they'd be better off getting American money. Opening opens up markets too, meaning more money flowing into Cuba and potentially to the average Cuban. The embargo sure hasn't made them free, has it?
 
Not true.
"The US Chamber of Commerce opposes the embargo, saying that it costs the United States $1.2 billion annually in lost sales of exports."
https://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/legacy/testimony/090427tradecuba.pdf

" If the embargo were lifted, the average American farmer would feel a difference in his or her life within two to three years"
Jacksonville.com: Study says U.S. farmers losing from sanctions on Cuba 1/28/02


Nope. It makes us look like we are joining the rest of the world. Do I need to remind you on those 23 UN votes?


Not true. See above.


Also not true.
"US exports to Cuba could reach $4.3 billion (3.5 billion euros) a year, compared to less than $360 million last year, according to analysts at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. Cuban merchandise imports to the US could go to $5.8 billion a year - a big improvement from today's zero."
Businesses optimistic as US-Cuba relations thaw | Business | DW.DE | 18.12.2014

The agricultural market argument is rank bull****. Predicated upon the specious presumption that farmers have an overproduction of goods. Are those farmers going to start producing more to meet the demand? Will more agricultural land magically appear? Is there agricultural land going fallow now, waiting for a greater market?

Of course the Chamber wants it, they also are just fine with open borders.
 
Oh yeah, China's population in 72 was ONLY 892 million. And we all knew where that trend was going, they weren't going to get smaller. A market largely untapped by the West.

How many people there are are is entirely irrelevant to the question. You keep implying there isn't a large enough market for us to bother. You're obviously not a businessman as that is not only absurd, it's absolutely devoid of any truth. The first people to immediately benefit from Cuba opening up to capitalism would be the small business owners in states near Cuba. They'd have access to 11 million brand new customers ripe for picking. That is 11 million new customers who will buy from US cellphone companies, furniture companies, fast food, clothing etc. If you think that is not a "compelling reason", you've obviously never run a business of your own.

I know, you're investing emotionally in China and your image of it. Fine, let's not talk of China anymore, it drives you nuts apparently. Since this thread is about Cuba, let's talk about Cuba.

Lol, you got caught making stuff up in your first 10 posts in this thread. Get serious. :lol:
 
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That's what happens when you don't understand the use of smart power in international relations. Obama opened up by bending over and letting Castro have fun with his ass and now Obama is trying to reclaim his virginity. That's not the way international relations works.

Admit it. You just thought of that and thought it sounded clever because "Obama, Obama, Obama!"


One question: How has the embargo improved the status of the Cuban people? Has it made them free?
 
The agricultural market argument is rank bull****. Predicated upon the specious presumption that farmers have an overproduction of goods. Are those farmers going to start producing more to meet the demand? Will more agricultural land magically appear? Is there agricultural land going fallow now, waiting for a greater market?

Of course the Chamber wants it, they also are just fine with open borders.

In light of evidence and links, your reply is nah uh???
 
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