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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

LOL Because that has worked so well for the last 50 yrs.

How has it not worked? It works just fine for us and continues to. What's your great need to enable Cuba?
 
I think we need relations with Cuba based on proximity to our borders alone. Not to mention our Cuban immigrants.

Why? Btw, the so-called Cuban immigrants don't agree with ending the embargo either.
 
Opening foreign relations with a country is not the same as telling them what govt to have or demand they give their people more freedom.

We didnt do that with China. And we dont do it with Saudi Arabia.

And the rest of your post is too silly to consider. It seems like we should invade....:doh

Why not?

The policy for 9 presidents of both parties has been to keep cuba in the dark until the regime reforms.

so not only does Obama end that policy, he rewards the Cubans for not reforming by handing over several Cuban spies complicit in the deaths of US citizens in international airspace by Cuban military authorities.

(and not only that, we even allowed one of them to provide some sperm in advance of the announcement so his wifey could artificially inseminate herself) just maddening. and we get nothing in return. The Cubans are not driving 56 buicks because no one will sell them subarus, they don't have money to buy subarus because of their economic policy. they have open trade with every other country on the planet. we were doing just fine without them.

so my proposal is to correct the stupid way this was done, by providing them a hardline choice, reform your way or ours, you have 15 days to decide, but either way reform will happen. and the president who threatens that must be serious.

Saudi is a different story, it's home to the most violent religion on the planet , you invade Saudi and you declare war with a billion and a half people, and they lucked out and found 5 huge oil fields which makes them very powerful in that any political instability in Saudi crashes the world economy. you think the Saudi King and princes flying out to Bangkok every Saturday for drinks and hookers care about Sharia law? they don't but they have to maintain the façade to keep their own religious right in check. different scenario.

China I think was a mistake to open trade with, but we didn't just open trade by giving them stuff, we got commerce in return. arguably benefitting both parties.

what does cuba have that they can offer us? I don't there's any shortage of sugar and tobacco in Estados Unidos we wanted reform from them, right or wrong, that's what they can provide us, because they produce nothing else worth trading for.
 
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Opening foreign relations with a country is not the same as telling them what govt to have or demand they give their people more freedom.

We didnt do that with China. And we dont do it with Saudi Arabia.
Because we didn't do it with those countries is not a reason to repeat the mistake. I don't have a problem with opening relations with Cuba. But I think we could have and should have made it contingent upon some concessions on rights and democracy in that country.
 
Why? Btw, the so-called Cuban immigrants don't agree with ending the embargo either.

Are you questioning their status or origin with your statement?

And why didn't you address our proximity to another nation as a reason to have relations?

There are cubans who are pro and anti embargo.

The real question to me is why continue an embargo on Cuba? I am going to assume any reason you give could be applied to another country that we do not have a current embargo on.
 
Why not?

The policy for 9 presidents of both parties has been to keep cuba in the dark until the regime reforms.

so not only does Obama end that policy, he rewards the Cubans for not reforming by handing over several Cuban spies complicit in the deaths of US citizens in international airspace by Cuban military authorities.

(and not only that, we even allowed one of them to provide some sperm in advance of the announcement so his wifey could artificially inseminate herself) just maddening. and we get nothing in return. The Cubans are not driving 56 buicks because no one will sell them subarus, they don't have money to buy subarus because of their economic policy. they have open trade with every other country on the planet. we were doing just fine without them.

so my proposal is to correct the stupid way this was done, by providing them a hardline choice, reform your way or ours, you have 15 days to decide, but either way reform will happen. and the president who threatens that must be serious.

Saudi is a different story, it's home to the most violent religion on the planet , you invade Saudi and you declare war with a billion and a half people, and they lucked out and found 5 huge oil fields which makes them very powerful in that any political instability in Saudi crashes the world economy. you think the Saudi King and princes flying out to Bangkok every Saturday for drinks and hookers care about Sharia law? they don't but they have to maintain the façade to keep their own religious right in check. different scenario.

China I think was a mistake to open trade with, but we didn't just open trade by giving them stuff, we got commerce in return. arguably benefitting both parties.

what does cuba have that they can offer us? I don't there's any shortage of sugar and tobacco in Estados Unidos we wanted reform from them, right or wrong, that's what they can provide us, because they produce nothing else worth trading for.

So it's not about right or wrong, just what's convenient? And screw them if they dont have anything to offer us? Fine...then lift the artificial, useless restrictions that make us look even more weak (since they didnt work) and hypocritical.
 
How has it not worked? It works just fine for us and continues to. What's your great need to enable Cuba?

For one thng, it's hypocritical and useless to do so.

And second, we look weak because we've been trying to 'use' our might thru isolation for decades and failed.
 
Are you questioning their status or origin with your statement?

And why didn't you address our proximity to another nation as a reason to have relations?

There are cubans who are pro and anti embargo.

The real question to me is why continue an embargo on Cuba? I am going to assume any reason you give could be applied to another country that we do not have a current embargo on.

There is absolutely no reason for us to even take the time to discuss with Cuba the lowering of the embargo. The embargo exists and is the fact of the day right now. It takes virtually zero effort on our part to continue with it. So the question remains, why go to any effort to end it? Has anything changed on Cuba that would make it a good neighbor? No. And they have nothing else other than being a good neighbor that we need or want.

And yes, I've long questioned the Wet Foot/Dry Foot policy.
 
We weren't embargoing China.

You sure about this?

American Experience . Nixon's China Game . Timeline | PBS

Look at December 8th, 1950. Tell me what happened in 1971 and then 1972. :) When you're done with that, you're welcome to continue spewing nonsense devoid of any historical accuracy.

Let the embargo continue until Cuba changes it's government.

Did we ask China to change its government before we lifted the US trade embargo?
 
For one thng, it's hypocritical and useless to do so.

And second, we look weak because we've been trying to 'use' our might thru isolation for decades and failed.

How is it at all hypocritical? All the examples you've given to support that reflection have been debunked. And secondly, no. The only failure in that would be ending the embargo now and with absolutely no reason to do so.
 
You sure about this?

American Experience . Nixon's China Game . Timeline | PBS

Look at December 8th, 1950. Tell me what happened in 1971 and then 1972. :) When you're done with that, you're welcome to continue spewing nonsense devoid of any historical accuracy.



Did we ask China to change its government before we lifted the US trade embargo?

China is not sitting off our shores, nor does Cuba have a sizeable market we were trying to break in to.
 
So it's not about right or wrong, just what's convenient? And screw them if they dont have anything to offer us? Fine...then lift the artificial, useless restrictions that make us look even more weak (since they didnt work) and hypocritical.

Our Sanctions have worked just fine, the Cuban leadership simply doesn't care.

This is like saying if you have a kid who's using drugs, and then asks you for money, which they promptly use for drugs, you shouldn't cut them off.

because if you cut them off and for ten years they keep using drugs then your sanction is silly and useless. The Cubans could've ended the embargo at any time. they chose not to. their loss.

Now what are we going to do? we now have a reputation of a country that's a pushover. Obama is literally the worst foreign policy negotiator known to man. this is on top of the Successful withdrawal from Iraq, the Red line in the sand, protests over a youtube video that hadn't even been released at that time (but what difference does that make?) the JV team, and the fact that the Baghdad government is providing the arms to the kurds we've asked them to right?

this whole administration has been a foreign policy disaster. the next president will have to take drastic action to restore our international standing.

Remember when TR sent the THE GREAT WHITE FLEET well neither does anyone else, that's the problem.....

It's not at all hypocritical to set conditions that a western country right off our shore adopt a constitutional republic. Saudi is a country of Arabic heritage, if you've studied the history of that people you wouldn't be surprised at how they are today

and they are the spiritual head of a faith of 1.5 billion people, Cuba is not. for it to be hypocrisy we would have to be comparing apples to apples. Saudi v cuba is a mustard seed to pumpkin comparison...
 
Because we didn't do it with those countries is not a reason to repeat the mistake. I don't have a problem with opening relations with Cuba. But I think we could have and should have made it contingent upon some concessions on rights and democracy in that country.

It is not our business to tell other countries what their govt should be. We tend to fail miserably and it's very hypocritical since we only do what is in our best interests...like CHina. And look at the change there with normalizing foreign relations?
 
China is not sitting off our shores, nor does Cuba have a sizeable market we were trying to break in to.

Look, you just got caught making history up. Quite literally. You claimed we weren't embargoing China. We most definitely were. All you needed to do was pick up a history book to know that. However, you didn't and now you're looking REALLY bad trying to segway into another ridiculous argument. I've done my job, can you do yours and admit you REALLY didn't know what you were talking about?
 
How is it at all hypocritical? All the examples you've given to support that reflection have been debunked. And secondly, no. The only failure in that would be ending the embargo now and with absolutely no reason to do so.

Didnt see a single, 'debunk.' LOL

People can write stuff, doesnt mean it's true.

And having a more open, prosperous country off our borders is certainly a greater advantage than the current situation.

We have failed for 50 yrs, now we can look magnanimous and make some moves that enable Cuba to open up economically and in terms of human rights. We arent forcing regime change, but making efforts that will enable it.
 
Our Sanctions have worked just fine,

Exactly what have the sanctions accomplished?
What bounty has the USofA reaped? Besides looking like idiots.

Flip side of that is, open trade and travel with Cuba and jobs get created, money flows, and capitalism works. Isn't that what so many of you want?

People in the USofA can start importing and exporting stuff to Cuba. More business.

Win-win.
 
Look, you just got caught making history up. Quite literally. You claimed we weren't embargoing China. We most definitely were. All you needed to do was pick up a history book to know that. However, you didn't and now you're looking REALLY bad trying to segway into another ridiculous argument. I've done my job, can you do yours and admit you REALLY didn't know what you were talking about?

Oh good grief, stalk someone else. Okay, I was wrong, we were embargoing China. So? China has billions of customers and we really wanted into that market. We're talking about Cuba here and you still utterly fail in showing any sort of compelling reason to end their embargo.
 
Didnt see a single, 'debunk.' LOL

People can write stuff, doesnt mean it's true.

And having a more open, prosperous country off our borders is certainly a greater advantage than the current situation.

We have failed for 50 yrs, now we can look magnanimous and make some moves that enable Cuba to open up economically and in terms of human rights. We arent forcing regime change, but making efforts that will enable it.

Well then, we can open up relations when they become open and prosperous. We haven't failed for 50 years, Cuba has. There is no advantage for us to change the policy.

And of course you haven't seen a single debunk, you're married to the argument that the US is the world's big brother and if their economies are failing we need to step in.
 
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Exactly what have the sanctions accomplished?
What bounty has the USofA reaped? Besides looking like idiots.

Flip side of that is, open trade and travel with Cuba and jobs get created, money flows, and capitalism works. Isn't that what so many of you want?

People in the USofA can start importing and exporting stuff to Cuba. More business.

Win-win.

We have kept Cuba isolated and don't have the token for a first world communist power sitting off our shores.

Opening trade with Cuba does nothing whatsoever for us. Not in image, we just look weak. Not economically either, they'll just need aid. And imports? They have nothing we need. Tin maybe, we already have plenty of that.
 
Exactly what have the sanctions accomplished?
What bounty has the USofA reaped? Besides looking like idiots.

Flip side of that is, open trade and travel with Cuba and jobs get created, money flows, and capitalism works. Isn't that what so many of you want?

People in the USofA can start importing and exporting stuff to Cuba. More business.

Win-win.
Looking like idiots to whom?
 
It's their business what freedoms they give their citizens. Not up to us. We dont dictate to China or Saudi Arabia, for ex, how to treat their citizens. We huff and puff but do little of substance. Our attempts at changes to human rights have taken years and have made no inroads in SA.

that doesnt mean I like the system in Cuba, just that it's hypocritical to consider it our business, both in general and there specifically.

How horrific. People aren't the personal property of their government. Feel free to be apathetic if you like but I would like my government to advocate for liberalism and democracy by whatever the most effective path is. Internationalism forever.
 
There is absolutely no reason for us to even take the time to discuss with Cuba the lowering of the embargo. The embargo exists and is the fact of the day right now. It takes virtually zero effort on our part to continue with it. So the question remains, why go to any effort to end it? Has anything changed on Cuba that would make it a good neighbor? No. And they have nothing else other than being a good neighbor that we need or want.

And yes, I've long questioned the Wet Foot/Dry Foot policy.

I would argue it takes far more effort to enforce an embargo than lift it.
 
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