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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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The Moscow Times | U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

January 22, 2015

President Vladimir Putin's new peace proposal for Ukraine is little more than a blueprint for military occupation to secure territory seized by Moscow-backed rebels, the U.S. envoy to the United Nations said on Wednesday. "The plan would seek to legitimize territorial gains made by separatists in September as well as Russian personnel and equipment on the territory of Ukraine," U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told the UN Security Council. "Let us pull the veil away from Putin's peace plan and call it for what it is — a Russian occupation plan," she said during a special meeting of the 15-member body on Ukraine. Power said it was "a plan that would free Russia from the commitment it made in Minsk to withdraw its fighters and return control over the international border to Ukraine." "Time and again President Putin has extended an olive branch in one hand while passing out grad missiles and tanks with the other," she said.

Indeed. The rebels and Russia signed a document (The Minsk Agreement) which called for a ceasefire and a freeze on troop movements beginning at 1600 GMT on 5 September 2014. It was signed by rebel leaders Aleksandr Zakharchenko and Ihor Plotnytskiy and the Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov. Russia also agreed in Minsk to pull all forces and equipment out of Ukraine. Toilet paper promises.

Within the past two weeks, rebel forces supplied by and in tandem with Russian forces have launched a major offensive and have captured the Donetsk International Airport and ~500 sq. miles of additional territory. They have attacked on a curved arc beginning at Volnovakha in the southeast, north to Pisky, and east to Stanytsk-Luhanska. These forces now control 7% of Ukraine territory (besides Crimea) and 20% of the population.

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Rebel armored vehicles (supplied by Russia) move towards Slovyanoserbsk in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday 21 January 2015. (Boston Herald)

January 22, 2015

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, speaking earlier at the World Economic Forum in Davos, said the upsurge in fighting after a nearly month-long lull was prompted by a new surge of Russian forces and weapons. "We have more than 9,000 troops of the Russian Federation on my territory, including more than 500 tanks and heavy artillery and armed personnel carriers," the pro-Western leader said. "Terror is not the problem of Ukraine, and even not the problem of Europe," Poroshenko told the high-powered audience in English. "This is a global problem. If this is not aggression, what is aggression?"

Kerry accuses rebels of attempting 'blatant land grab'
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Typical Russian and Serbian manouvre.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064224721 said:
Russia also agreed in Minsk to pull all forces and equipment out of Ukraine.

Interesting opinion. This was told Ukrainian Nazis?..
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Interesting opinion. This was told Ukrainian Nazis?..
Not opinion. Fact. Point 10 of 12 agreed to by Russia in signing the Minsk Agreement...

10. Withdraw the illegal armed groups, military equipment, as well as fighters and mercenaries from Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064228819 said:
Not opinion. Fact. Point 10 of 12 agreed to by Russia in signing the Minsk Agreement...

Why do you think that this applies to Russia? Russia acted as an intermediary, while they themselves were an agreement between Kiev and the militias.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Why do you think that this applies to Russia?
The followup memorandum signed by Russia on 19 September 2014...
  • To withdraw all foreign mercenaries from the conflict zone

Ergo...Russian soldiers on "vacation". Rather than withdraw such forces, Putin has injected even more Russian soldiers and equipment into the conflict.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Better get used to it. My bet is that Russia will not allow the west to set up camp in their back yard.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Better get used to it. My bet is that Russia will not allow the west to set up camp in their back yard.

And why would they? I feel bad for the people of Ukraine who are just pawns in a power play.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064224721 said:
I see no problem with Russia taking its proper claim to the Ukraine and to the Crimea because the Ukraine belonged to Russia dating back 250 years to Catherine the Great circa 1764.

The western territory of the Ukraine was part of old Poland, see LINK.

Today it is the West being led by the USA who tried to get the Ukraine to pull away from Russia or else none of the present hostilities would have happened.

I honestly see the actions of their President Putin as being skillful and professional and performed like an expert, while our President Obama speaks like a complete fool where it comes to this American made crisis.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Better get used to it. My bet is that Russia will not allow the west to set up camp in their back yard.
Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Georgia, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Armenia, Moldova, Transnistria, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and the Arctic. States either already in the Russian sphere or experiencing pressures from Moscow.

Not including the Arctic claims, that is ~1,456,000+ mi[sup]2[/sup] of "backyard" which is populated by ~152 million people.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I see no problem with Russia taking its proper claim to the Ukraine and to the Crimea because the Ukraine belonged to Russia dating back 250 years to Catherine the Great circa 1764.
You forgot... Alaska also once belonged to Russia.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064233937 said:
You forgot... Alaska also once belonged to Russia.

And what?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Better get used to it. My bet is that Russia will not allow the west to set up camp in their back yard.

So Russia won't tolerate the West supposivily acting like a bully, so Putin turns around and acts like the bully himself?
Makes sense! :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Better get used to it. My bet is that Russia will not allow the west to set up camp in their back yard.

That is an impossible mission.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064232910 said:
Ergo...Russian soldiers on "vacation". Rather than withdraw such forces, Putin has injected even more Russian soldiers and equipment into the conflict.


This Ukrainian media have told you?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

So Russia won't tolerate the West supposivily acting like a bully, so Putin turns around and acts like the bully himself?
Makes sense! :roll:

It's a matter of perspective, obviously, but usually true that those to whom evil is done, do evil in return. History makes that very clear.

Attack the eagle, or attack the bear, the likely response is a counterattack or a vigorous defense.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I see no problem with Russia taking its proper claim to the Ukraine and to the Crimea because the Ukraine belonged to Russia dating back 250 years to Catherine the Great circa 1764.

Whats 'proper' about Russias claim to Ukraine then ? The Ukrainians voted en mass to become independent in 1991. I've visited the country a number of times between 2005-12 both East and West Ukraine and believe me when I say the great bulk of them want nothing to do with being a part of some greater Russian empire. Surely its their right of self determination that has first priority ?

Today it is the West being led by the USA who tried to get the Ukraine to pull away from Russia or else none of the present hostilities would have happened.

No Russia tried to stop Ukraine joining the EU and then potentially NATO. In polls before this happened well over 80% of Ukrainians were in favour of EU membership, this situation was intolerable for Putin who told his corrupt 'poodle' Yanukovych to do a complete U turn against the wishes of his people. The rest as they say is history
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064233937 said:
You forgot... Alaska also once belonged to Russia.
That is correct if Russia ever wanted to reclaim Alaska THEN then at that time the USA would have a legitimate reason to get involved.

As it is in the Ukraine the USA has no business with interfering there.


=======================================


Whats 'proper' about Russias claim to Ukraine then ? The Ukrainians voted en mass to become independent in 1991. I've visited the country a number of times between 2005-12 both East and West Ukraine and believe me when I say the great bulk of them want nothing to do with being a part of some greater Russian empire. Surely its their right of self determination that has first priority ?

No Russia tried to stop Ukraine joining the EU and then potentially NATO. In polls before this happened well over 80% of Ukrainians were in favour of EU membership, this situation was intolerable for Putin who told his corrupt 'poodle' Yanukovych to do a complete U turn against the wishes of his people. The rest as they say is history
The Eastern side has long history as Russian territory along with the people speaking Russian and belonging to the Orthodox Church and traditions which make the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea as being a part of Russia.

I realize that the USA has been pressuring and bribing the former Soviet Republics into joining the Western alliance and NATO which meant that the USA was instigating the hostilities with Russia and now that hostility has blossomed.

Honestly I believe that if our USA's petty efforts were to succeed then Russia would launch a first strike against us - and rightly so.

Fortunately for me is that I feel much safer by knowing our fate rest in the competent hands of their President Putin instead of the worries I have from our own American war mongers getting us all killed.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Eastern side has long history as Russian territory along with the people speaking Russian and belonging to the Orthodox Church and traditions which make the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea as being a part of Russia.

Heads up. I'm Scottish but I speak Russian as do 99% of Ukrainians

I realize that the USA has been pressuring and bribing the former Soviet Republics into joining the Western alliance and NATO which meant that the USA was instigating the hostilities with Russia and now that hostility has blossomed.

BS . They could have done that 20 years ago against no resistance whatsoever

Fortunately for me is that I feel much safer by knowing our fate rest in the competent hands of their President Putin

Let me just stop you there. Putin is the gangster in chief of a gangster oligarchy so to equate that with any sort of moral equivalency to the west is laughable frankly
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Whats 'proper' about Russias claim to Ukraine then ? The Ukrainians voted en mass to become independent in 1991. I've visited the country a number of times between 2005-12 both East and West Ukraine and believe me when I say the great bulk of them want nothing to do with being a part of some greater Russian empire. Surely its their right of self determination that has first priority ?

I believe the referendum held in Crimea is much more representative than your "great bulk".

No Russia tried to stop Ukraine joining the EU and then potentially NATO. In polls before this happened well over 80% of Ukrainians were in favour of EU membership, this situation was intolerable for Putin who told his corrupt 'poodle' Yanukovych to do a complete U turn against the wishes of his people. The rest as they say is history

The history of elections in Ukraine - both presidential and for parliament - show your words are lie.
Pro-western parties could win elections in Ukraine only after revolutions and coups. Meanwhile pro-Russian parties and presidents won always when elections took place in peaceful environment.

For example, Leonid Kuchma, who was considered as "pro-Russian", won elections twice in 1994 and in 1999.

Viktor Yuschenko, the pro-western candidate, could become the president only after "Orange revolution" of 2004, virtually the same kind of "maidan" when pro-western opposition did not recognize the results and led their supporters to Maidan first time. Then authorities gave in and agreed to hold the so-called "third round" of elections that was violation of law and election procedures.

But in 2010 Viktor Yanukovich, the "evil pro-Russian candidate" wins again.

In 2014 pro-western powers win again. And again after violence and revolution. Now through blood and deaths. Turchinov was declared the president by parliament that was again violation of law. In extraordinary elections, after Yanukovich was expelled, all pro-Russian parties were supressed and many simply refused to take part in election due to safety reasons, Poroshenko has won. By the way, that was the lowest voters' turnout for all presidential elections in Ukraine.

The same picture is for parliament elections. The only once when pro-western powers won election for Rada is the war election of 2014. After violent seizer of power in the country.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I believe the referendum held in Crimea is much more representative than your "great bulk".

Only Crimea oblast has a majority ethnic Russian demographic and only 2% of Ukraines population so no its not representative of anything but Crimea

The history of elections in Ukraine - both presidential and for parliament - show your words are lie.
Pro-western parties could win elections in Ukraine only after revolutions and coups.

There seemed to be no problem for them before Yanukovych except when Russia tried to poison them of course. Perhaps his locking up of the opposition leaders after he got elected might not have been a good idea with hindsight :roll:

But in 2010 Viktor Yanukovich, the "evil pro-Russian candidate" wins again.

In 2014 pro-western powers win again. And again after violence and revolution. Now through blood and deaths. Turchinov was declared the president by parliament that was again violation of law. In extraordinary elections, after Yanukovich was expelled, all pro-Russian parties were supressed and many simply refused to take part in election due to safety reasons, Poroshenko has won. By the way, that was the lowest voters' turnout for all presidential elections in Ukraine.

I think his plundering of state coffers, jailing of opposition and his incomprehensible U turn on EU membership before cuddling up to Russia had rather more to do with his downfall than US conspiracy theories. If the West wanted Ukraine they could have had on a plate 20 years ago when Russia was bankrupt ,militarily prostrate and led by a drunk.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Eastern side has long history as Russian territory along with the people speaking Russian and belonging to the Orthodox Church and traditions which make the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea as being a part of Russia.

The Donetsk and Luhansk areas involved in the conflict are only 38% ethnic Russian. What about the wants and desires of the majority Ukrainians who live there and doubtless want nothing to do with being Russian again BTW virtually all Ukrainians can speak Russian fluently and overall only 17.3% of them nationally are ethnic Russians

I realize that the USA has been pressuring and bribing the former Soviet Republics into joining the Western alliance and NATO which meant that the USA was instigating the hostilities with Russia and now that hostility has blossomed.

If it really wanted Ukraine so badly it could have gotten it for free 20 years ago so I really don't buy that argument

Honestly I believe that if our USA's petty efforts were to succeed then Russia would launch a first strike against us - and rightly so.

Fortunately for me is that I feel much safer by knowing our fate rest in the competent hands of their President Putin instead of the worries I have from our own American war mongers getting us all killed.

In the safe hands of an ex KGB heavy? One of the most sinister devious organisations of the last century ..... right :roll:

I'd be extremely wary of his highly organised disinformation campaign too

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...al-media-trolling-and-faked-ukrainian-crimes/
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

There seemed to be no problem for them before Yanukovych except when Russia tried to poison them of course. Perhaps his locking up of the opposition leaders after he got elected might not have been a good idea with hindsight :roll:

I think his plundering of state coffers, jailing of opposition and his incomprehensible U turn on EU membership before cuddling up to Russia had rather more to do with his downfall than US conspiracy theories. If the West wanted Ukraine they could have had on a plate 20 years ago when Russia was bankrupt ,militarily prostrate and led by a drunk.

It's not conspiracy theories, it's well known facts, such as phone conversation between Pyatt and Nuland, for instance, that shows the USA are completely inside Ukraine's politics. 20 years ago, as Ive said above, Ukraine was ruled by Leonid Kuchma who considered as pro-Russian even though he's never been so. Anyway he was much more independent, this is first. The second, all these so-called "non-governmental organizations" which are funded by US government proxies under cover of CIA - democracy foundations and so on - at that time weren't so spreaded all over Ukraine. Though Russia was bankrupt and led by drunk the USA had much less leverages in the new countries of former USSR. Simply because not enough time passed since Moscow with all its KGB and other special services lost control over Ukraine and over other former Soviet republics. If we talk about Ukraine then this country was ruled by so-called "red directors" - the heads of big industrial plants, Soviet industrial managers (exactly this part of social elite made Kuchma the president). The Ukrainian part of Soviet legacy included 700.000 army, the airforce that was fourth in the world by quantity - after USA, Russia and China, and also nuclear weapons. So, I don't think the USA had a big wish to get involved wich such country. making social experiments like revolutions in a country with nuclear bombs may worth too much. Now it's different. No nukes, no army, no KGB, no red directors, no state actually. I suppose your judgement about "20 years ago" is superficial and not enough thought out.

As for the Ukraine's opposition leaders, they are the same as the "evil" Yanukovich. They all descended from Ukrainian government of 1990s - Timoshenko and Yuschenko (the same as Yanukovich) were ministers in the governments of Kuchma, Yuschenko was head of central bank, Timoshenko (who was the only jailed "oppositioner") was the head of state energy corporation. She made a big fortune, by the way, and they all are not angels to put it mildly. It's not black and white, western democracy against evil tyranny, it's much more complicated.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Sly Master of Mordor strikes again:

ST. PETERSBURG, January 26 /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday that Moscow might extend the period of sojourn in Russian territory for Ukrainians of conscription age who can be drafted into the Ukrainian army.

“Many people, by the way, do not want to be mobilized. They are trying to move into Russia and lie low for some time. And they are absolutely right because they are simply being sent under bullets like cannon fodder,” Putin said.

“Under a new law, Ukrainian citizens cannot stay in Russia for more than 30 days. After that they have to return to Ukraine where they are being caught and sent under the bullets again. That is why I think that we are going to change something in that law”.

TASS: Russia - Russia may help Ukrainians of conscription age avoid army service
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It's not conspiracy theories, it's well known facts, such as phone conversation between Pyatt and Nuland, for instance

By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more

, that shows the USA are completely inside Ukraine's politics. 20 years ago, as Ive said above, Ukraine was ruled by Leonid Kuchma who considered as pro-Russian even though he's never been so. Anyway he was much more independent, this is first. The second, all these so-called "non-governmental organizations" which are funded by US government proxies under cover of CIA - democracy foundations and so on - at that time weren't so spreaded all over Ukraine. Though Russia was bankrupt and led by drunk the USA had much less leverages in the new countries of former USSR. Simply because not enough time passed since Moscow with all its KGB and other special services lost control over Ukraine and over other former Soviet republics. If we talk about Ukraine then this country was ruled by so-called "red directors" - the heads of big industrial plants, Soviet industrial managers (exactly this part of social elite made Kuchma the president). The Ukrainian part of Soviet legacy included 700.000 army, the airforce that was fourth in the world by quantity - after USA, Russia and China, and also nuclear weapons. So, I don't think the USA had a big wish to get involved wich such country. making social experiments like revolutions in a country with nuclear bombs may worth too much. Now it's different. No nukes, no army, no KGB, no red directors, no state actually. I suppose your judgement about "20 years ago" is superficial and not enough thought out.

What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today :(
 
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