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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
LOL.. yeah... turn out was what in Eastern Ukraine?
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Eastern Ukraine is overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
Please provide the provisions of the Hague Conventions or any other relevant treaty under which selling arms to a belligerent engaged in a war against another belligerent is an act of war. Tell me did the Soviet Union commit an act of war against the US when it provided arms to the North Koreans and the North Vietnamese?



Reciprocal Tariff Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Ah I see so you are in a world where engaging in trade and not engaging in trade are acts of war. :roll:
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The Hague Conventions are about how to conduct war, not about the reasons for going to war. The decision for a sovereign country to go to war tests with that country only and there may be many reasons for it. In certain circumstances a country may or may not feel that a trade embargo is a direct threat to iTS vital interests and security.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
Eastern Ukraine is overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian.
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This is patently not true.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
This is patently not true.
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It's not my problem that you have no idea what you're talking about.

UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
It's not my problem that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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So all the major cities in Eastern Ukraine. You know, Donetsk, Lughansk, and Mariupol.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
It's not my problem that you have no idea what you're talking about.

UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png
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Figures and maps from the exact same census show that in the region Donetsk there are 75% Russian speakers and in the region Luhansk 70%. In several vordering regions it is close to 50%. The one who does,'t know what he is talkking about is you.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The Hague Conventions are about how to conduct war, not about the reasons for going to war. The decision for a sovereign country to go to war tests with that country only and there may be many reasons for it. In certain circumstances a country may or may not feel that a trade embargo is a direct threat to iTS vital interests and security.
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So then you support aggressive war, good to know. If you want to take this to its inevitable conclusion then Japan violating the sovereignty and invading Manchuria, China, and Indo-China was a direct threat to the US vital interests and security thus giving us Casus Belli to engage in economic sanction. By your logic all members of the BDS movement have declared war on Israel, MLK Jr. declared war on the U.S. by supporting economic boycotts, and everyone who launched trade embargo's against S. Africa declared war on them as well.

Regardless I clearly said "or any relevant treaty":

Kellogg–Briand Pact
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Kellogg–Briand Pact (or Pact of Paris, officially General Treaty for Renunciation of War as an Instrument of National Policy[1]) was a 1928 international agreement in which signatory states promised not to use war to resolve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them".[2] Parties failing to abide by this promise "should be denied of the benefits furnished by this treaty". It was signed by Germany, France and the United States on August 27, 1928, and by most other nations soon after. Sponsored by France and the U.S., the Pact renounced the use of war and called for the peaceful settlement of disputes. Similar provisions were incorporated into the UN Charter and other treaties and it became a stepping stone to a more activist American policy.[3] It is named after its authors, United States Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg and French foreign minister Aristide Briand.

Kellogg

The convention defined an act of aggression as follows:

Declaration of war upon another State.
Invasion by its armed forces, with or without a declaration of war, of the territory of another State.
Attack by its land, naval or air forces, with or without a declaration of war, on the territory, vessels or aircraft of another State.
Naval blockade of the coasts or ports of another State.
Provision of support to armed bands formed in its territory which have invaded the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take, in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection.


War of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So to reiterate it is good to know that you support aggressive war.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Figures and maps from the exact same census show that in the region Donetsk there are 75% Russian speakers and in the region Luhansk 70%. In several vordering regions it is close to 50%. The one who does,'t know what he is talkking about is you.
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No such figures or maps exist, you are overtly lying, ethnic Ukrainians may speak both Ukrainian and Russian but the majority of the citizenry are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian:

At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Way to fail.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
So all the major cities in Eastern Ukraine. You know, Donetsk, Lughansk, and Mariupol.
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All of which have majority ethnic Ukrainian populations so save your big lie propaganda for members of Putin's cult of personality:


At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnic structure

Ethnic Ukrainians make up the largest percentage but less than half of the population; the second greatest ethnicity is Russian.

Ethnicity Number of people Percent of population
Ukrainian 248,683 48.7
Russian 226,848 44.4


Mariupol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
No such figures or maps exist, you are overtly lying:

At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Way to fail.
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They do exist and are easily found on the Wikipedia article concerning Ukraine. Your foolish accusations say enough about you.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
They do exist and are easily found on the Wikipedia article concerning Ukraine. Your foolish accusations say enough about you.
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The statistics have just been provided to you in full the majority of the populations of Luhansk and Donetsk are ethnically Ukrainian, your lie has been exposed, as is the fact that you have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about best to stick with the RT comments sections I think.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
So then you support aggressive war, good to know. If you want to take this to its inevitable conclusion then Japan violating the sovereignty and invading Manchuria, China, and Indo-China was a direct threat to the US vital interests and security thus giving us Casus Belli to engage in economic sanction. By your logic all members of the BDS movement have declared war on Israel, MLK Jr. declared war on the U.S. by supporting economic boycotts, and everyone who launched trade embargo's against S. Africa declared war on them as well.

Regardless I clearly said "or any relevant treaty":

Kellogg–Briand Pact
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Kellogg–Briand Pact (or Pact of Paris, officially General Treaty for Renunciation of War as an Instrument of National Policy[1]) was a 1928 international agreement in which signatory states promised not to use war to resolve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them".[2] Parties failing to abide by this promise "should be denied of the benefits furnished by this treaty". It was signed by Germany, France and the United States on August 27, 1928, and by most other nations soon after. Sponsored by France and the U.S., the Pact renounced the use of war and called for the peaceful settlement of disputes. Similar provisions were incorporated into the UN Charter and other treaties and it became a stepping stone to a more activist American policy.[3] It is named after its authors, United States Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg and French foreign minister Aristide Briand.

Kellogg

The convention defined an act of aggression as follows:

Declaration of war upon another State.
Invasion by its armed forces, with or without a declaration of war, of the territory of another State.
Attack by its land, naval or air forces, with or without a declaration of war, on the territory, vessels or aircraft of another State.
Naval blockade of the coasts or ports of another State.
Provision of support to armed bands formed in its territory which have invaded the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take, in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection.


War of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So to reiterate it is good to know that you support aggressive war.
Click to expand...

I can't help it that you can't debate rationally. Bye.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
I can't help it that you can't debate rationally. Bye.
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It's not my fault that you have no idea what you're talking about, support aggressive war, and claim bull**** statistics, get pwned by the actual figures, and then take your ball and go home.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
The statistics have just been provided to you in full the majority of the populations of Luhansk and Donetsk are ethnically Ukrainian, your lie has been exposed, as is the fact that you have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about best to stick with the RT comments sections I think.
Click to expand...

Feel Free to continue shouting As much as you want. That doesn't change the facts. Bye.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Feel Free to continue shouting As much as you want. That doesn't change the facts. Bye.
Click to expand...

Facts are stubborn things, that's why I have presented them in full:


At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnic structure

Ethnic Ukrainians make up the largest percentage but less than half of the population; the second greatest ethnicity is Russian.

Ethnicity Number of people Percent of population
Ukrainian 248,683 48.7
Russian 226,848 44.4


Mariupol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You see the facts are on my side and the big lie fascist propaganda straight from the war criminals in Kremlin are on yours.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The facts are that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are Russian-speakers and about 70% of the population of the Luhansk region. The percentages are obviously even higher in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Seriously? There was just a vote in Scotland last November about Scottish Independence. 45% (1.6 million) of the Scottish population voted to leave the UK.
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As a Scot myself I'm well aware of this. The independence vote lost and unlike Ukraine no blood was shed and no third party chose it as an opportunity to invade

Then let's not forget about the never ending issues in Northern Ireland in which has even a longer history which includes ideas such as Home Rule, demands for separate Kingdoms by guys like Daniel O' Connell who called for the end of the Acts of the Union (1800) during the Catholic emancipation movement in the UK.
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As somebody who did two tours in Northern Ireland I'm well aware of this too. In 1994 the nationalists ended this conflict and chose peace themselves

Yes, you are called the United Kingdom but you aren't that "united". Devolution has taken place in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and even England with the Greater London Authority. Even Winston Churchill supported the idea of giving England it's own Parliament or dividing into regional parliaments and Royal Commissions have been set up over the issues as well. Hell even Cornwall is getting into the game and Labour has made some big promises to them.
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I never claimed we were perfect but the system currently works better than most I'd say

You know what the leaves the UK as? An economic union with a federal system and autonomy.
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The UK economy is doing just fine at the moment in comparison to our neighbours
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The facts are that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are Russian-speakers and about 70% of the population of the Luhansk region. The percentages are obviously even higher in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
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The majority ethnicity in Donetsk and Luhansk is Ukrainian. Being bilingual does not change ones ethnicity. The population statistics have been presented and prove you have no clue what you're talking about. Please provide your citations for you proven lie that the majority ethnicity in either Luhansk or Donetsk is Russian. I'll be waiting with baited breath for these statistics that exist only in your own mind.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The facts are that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are Russian-speakers and about 70% of the population of the Luhansk region. The percentages are obviously even higher in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
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You do realise 99% of Ukrainians are bilingual so that statistic is pretty meaningless. In fact in the last census only 38% of the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts were ethnic Russians
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
You do realise 99% of Ukrainians are bilingual so that statistic is pretty meaningless. In fact in the last census only 38% of the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts were ethnic Russians
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We are not talkking about being Bilingual but about what is peopl's primary language.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
We are not talkking about being Bilingual but about what is peopl's primary language.
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I speak some Russian and have been all over Ukraine. Ukrainians often speak a mish mash of both languages in coloquial conversation in fact and so it often makes it difficult to follow conversations at times believe me ! :)
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
We are not talkking about being Bilingual but about what is peopl's primary language.
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A) You have been shown the map that shows that Ukrainian is the primary language in the overwhelming majority of the Ukraine.

B) Language =/= ethnicity and being bilingual does not change ones ethnicity, you have been shown twice now that the majority of the population in the two examples you yourself cited are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian! The assertion that because more ethnic Ukrainians can speak Russian than ethnic Russians can speak Ukrainian means that the majority of the eastern Ukraine is Russian is the most illogical pile of nonsense that I've read in a while.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

People who hurl insults and purposely misrepresent what somebody else writes say a lot about themselves and Nothing about those they try to insult.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
People who hurl insults and purposely misrepresent what somebody else writes say a lot about themselves and Nothing about those they try to insult.
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This is what I wrote:

face said:
Eastern Ukraine is overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian.
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This is what you wrote in response:

Fleming said:
This is patently not true.
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You have been shown even with your two cited examples of Luhansk and Donetsk, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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