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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

All I was shown was an opinion. On this issue (Ukraine) Putin isn't the evil you're painting.

No you were shown a long list of misdemeanours that have entirely undermined freedom and democracy in Russia. Putin is one of the most dangerous individuals in the world today. If we continue giving him a free hand to do in Ukraine what he has already done at home then we only have ourselves to blame.

I see this as rather more than just another expedient world event that can somehow be bent in order to try and beat up on the US because of its earlier sins
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Not pretending, saying!

You are either willfully ignorant or just plain lying.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064288345 said:
If you want to go back in history, Moscow is situated on land that was originally Ukrainian.

Do you have anything... contemporary?

And if we go a bit further back in (unwritten) history before political creations, neither Ukraine nor Russia existed. So what's the point?

Might seems to make right in more contemporary history....;)
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

You are either willfully ignorant or just plain lying.

Actually, there's no excuse for ignorance, information flows to easily anymore for people to be oblivious to what's happening. On the issue of Ukraine, Putin is right and you will see the same reaction to any attempted expansion of NATO influence eastward. The rub is that patronising of the West as you are, it escapes you that it's not in Russia's interest to allow it, nor will they. So get over it and pay attention to more important things.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Actually, there's no excuse for ignorance, information flows to easily anymore for people to be oblivious to what's happening. On the issue of Ukraine, Putin is right and you will see the same reaction to any attempted expansion of NATO influence eastward. The rub is that patronising of the West as you are, it escapes you that it's not in Russia's interest to allow it, nor will they. So get over it and pay attention to more important things.

So just lying.
Gotcha
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Actually, there's no excuse for ignorance, information flows to easily anymore for people to be oblivious to what's happening. On the issue of Ukraine, Putin is right and you will see the same reaction to any attempted expansion of NATO influence eastward. The rub is that patronising of the West as you are, it escapes you that it's not in Russia's interest to allow it, nor will they. So get over it and pay attention to more important things.

And what about what Ukraine wants ? Or doesn't that count ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

And what about what Ukraine wants ? Or doesn't that count ?

Ukraine is composed of 40 odd million people, a chunk of which in the Far East are demonstrating what they want, and it isn't what your pushing.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Ukraine is composed of 40 odd million people, a chunk of which in the Far East are demonstrating what they want, and it isn't what your pushing.

Ukraine actually has 45 million of which only 9% of the population of Ukraine live in the contested areas and of those only 38% are ethnic Russian. If you do the math that comes to just over 1.5 million, so (even supposing they all supported Russia) ,not a very large chunk then :cool:

Are you suggesting the other 43.5 million give up their sovereignty and right to self determination in order to conform to the wishes of this minority ? Perhaps it would be simpler if this minority just went to live in Russia instead ?

Just for additional info only 17% of the population of Ukraine as a whole are ethnic Russian
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Ukraine actually has 45 million of which only 9% of the population of Ukraine live in the contested areas and of those only 38% are ethnic Russian. If you do the math that comes to just over 1.5 million, so (even supposing they all supported Russia) ,not a very large chunk then :cool:

Are you suggesting the other 43.5 million give up their sovereignty and right to self determination in order to conform to the wishes of this minority ? Perhaps it would be simpler if this minority just went to live in Russia instead ?

Just for additional info only 17% of the population of Ukraine as a whole are ethnic Russian

Why would I ever suggest that idiotic idea. The separatists are looking for autonomy in the East where they reside, not looking to control the entire nation.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Why would I ever suggest that idiotic idea. The separatists are looking for autonomy in the East where they reside, not looking to control the entire nation.

The problem the 'separatists' have is that they are the minority ethnic group in the region. Only by driving out the Ukrainian majority in Donetsk and Luhansk and turning them into refugees within their own country (with Russias help of course) can this 'autonomy' ever be achieved.

The tactics being used by Russia in the region lend validation to that agenda
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The problem the 'separatists' have is that they are the minority ethnic group in the region. Only by driving out the Ukrainian majority in Donetsk and Luhansk and turning them into refugees within their own country (with Russias help of course) can this 'autonomy' ever be achieved.

The tactics being used by Russia in the region lend validation to that agenda

Self determination doesn't always deliver what you like.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Having visited places in Eastern Ukraine too I'm certain that the only way Putin can achieve his aim is to divide and conquer. He cannot win any referendum in the disputed areas because unlike with Crimea the math of ethnic demographic works against him. The best he can hope for is to keep Ukraine politically and militarily destabilised, keeping it out of the EU and NATO as long as he can. It may also be that he wants to force as many ethnic Ukrainians out of the region as possible thereby permanently changing the numerical balance of what was once an unfavourable demographic. Obviously this gameplan will require much time in order to be realised

Did you look at the 2010 Election map of Ukraine. You can view it here.

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, Crimea, Odessa,Kharkiv and MyKolaiv all voted 50% or greater for the "pro-Russian" vs the "Pro-West" candidate. These are also areas in which 30% plus of the population states Russian as their native language. Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk it's well over 70%. Then on top of that here is a map of support for Russian being a recognized official "federal" language.

So your theory is bunk just on these facts alone. These areas were already heavily Russian in terms of language, culture and identity.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064292632 said:
What exactly has the US annexed in the past 100 years?

Panama Canal? Colombia wanted a fair deal and US wanted to bleed them dry. So US "encouraged", funded and protected the Panamanian Revoluton. US Navy ran blockade against Colombia preventing speedy dispatching troops and supplies. US held on to that land for a good while don't you think?

And then there is a bunch of Pacific Islands the US annexed as well. You know Second Samoan Civil War in which the US and UK fought Germany over the Samoan Islands. Then you have this gem, Guano Islands Act which allowed a US citizen the right to annex islands in the Pacific which had bat **** deposits. Over 100 islands were claimed such as Bajo Nuevo Banks, Navassa Island, and Midway Atoll (Island).

Yep.. US never annexed anything.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Putin is an internationally recognized war criminal so you have an interesting concept of "done nothing wrong". :roll:

Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Heads up. There was a united Ukraine for 23 years until you guys decided that there shouldn't be anymore :(

Ukraine wasn't united. There has always been (in this case 23 years) of differences between Western and Eastern Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I've been all over the Ukraine my friend (even the east) and the great bulk of people there regarded their national sovereignty and right to self determination as rather more than just some 'facade'.

So why can't they support DNR and LNR's right to bugger off from the **** hole called Ukraine?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

As you were shown earlier I seriously doubt that any US administration has ever been quite as sinister or corrupt as the one currently occupying the Kremlin

Then you haven't read up on LBJ or FDR who both PURPOSELY started wars for their own gains and against public support. FDR decided to piss off the Japanese knowing damn well that would = Pearl Harbor or Wake Island. LBJ lied about Gulf of Tonkin.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Since Obama has killed 50,000 Ukranians, right?
Since yer ranting all over DEM Presidents heading back to FDR, don't you think you missed a few GOP criminals along the way.
Ever hear of Iran-Contra?
Or Iraq last decade?

Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Those tens of thousands of merchant seaman who were sunk by Hitler would beg to differ with you.
You know, the Nazis allied with Japan.
How long would you have allowed the Japanese to expand without cutting off their oil?

Good thing FDR was able to overcome the traitors in the GOP who were aligned with the Nazis in the 1930s.
Such as Sen. Prescott Bush--GWB's grandfather .

Then you haven't read up on LBJ or FDR who both PURPOSELY started wars for their own gains and against public support. FDR decided to piss off the Japanese knowing damn well that would = Pearl Harbor or Wake Island. LBJ lied about Gulf of Tonkin.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Self determination doesn't always deliver what you like.

You mean Ukrainian self determination doesn't deliver what YOU like :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Ukraine wasn't united. There has always been (in this case 23 years) of differences between Western and Eastern Ukraine.

There are differences between England Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland but we are still called the United Kingdom nonetheless
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Did you look at the 2010 Election map of Ukraine. You can view it here.

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, Crimea, Odessa,Kharkiv and MyKolaiv all voted 50% or greater for the "pro-Russian" vs the "Pro-West" candidate. These are also areas in which 30% plus of the population states Russian as their native language. Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk it's well over 70%. Then on top of that here is a map of support for Russian being a recognized official "federal" language.

So your theory is bunk just on these facts alone. These areas were already heavily Russian in terms of language, culture and identity.

Its what happened after that election that brought his downfall.

1. Locking up opposition leaders
2. Sequestering an estimated $100 billion in state funds
3. Doing a complete U turn on EU membership which was the platform on which he secured that election victory then cuddling up to Russia
4. Clinging on to power once even his own cabinet members had abandoned him

I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did frankly
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

So why can't they support DNR and LNR's right to bugger off from the **** hole called Ukraine?

They can bugger off any time they like. The border isn't that far away and theres just over 1.5 million of them. Russia has the space after all. I have no interest in seeing a minority prevail over the majority (which the ethnic Russians certainly represent in Donetsk and Luhansk). Why do you ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Then you haven't read up on LBJ or FDR who both PURPOSELY started wars for their own gains and against public support. FDR decided to piss off the Japanese knowing damn well that would = Pearl Harbor or Wake Island. LBJ lied about Gulf of Tonkin.

They also introduced the New Deal ,the Great Society and the Civil rights bill. Something not exactly mirrored in Putins Russia ! :lol:

Blaming FDRs sanctions for Japans misdemeanours is quite laughable revisionism frankly
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Then you haven't read up on LBJ or FDR who both PURPOSELY started wars for their own gains and against public support. FDR decided to piss off the Japanese knowing damn well that would = Pearl Harbor or Wake Island. LBJ lied about Gulf of Tonkin.

More off topic fiction about FDR starting wars.
 
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