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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
You have to understand something also. Putin may have forcefully prevented any Ukraine association with NATO, but he also lost that country. He also did both himself and Russia irreparable harm in the eyes of the international community. Putin's Eurasian Economic Union is floundering. Russia's economy is cratering and European nations are now actively searching for energy alternatives to negate Putin's blackmail card. NATO will be re-arming. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan now understand the peril of being too closely aligned with Putin. When you add all the pluses and minuses, Putin has succeeded wildly in corralling Russia into an ever-shrinking patch of trust and viability.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Do you have anything that suggested I did. I said that Putin respond to US/EU involvement in Kiev,

What EU/US involvement in Kiev ? I'm still waiting for your evidence ?

and apparently looked down the field and anticipated the possibility of this being another NATO expansion, and as such, a threat to Sevastopol.

If every nation in the world were to respond with armed force to something its neighbours might do the globe would be a smoking cinder. How can you possibly justify Russias actions in such terms ?

It would not be the kind of thing that they would take a wait and see approach. Securing it that moment would be far less expensive, and far less controversial than having to move in in the event that Ukraine had followed with a movement of military fortifications to Crimea and announced that those bases would no longer be available to Russia. You need to realise something, Russia is going to retain Sevastopol.

Pure fantasy as usual

In 2010 Ukraine and Russia had signed the Kharkiv pact guaranteeing Russia's Black Sea Fleet base until 2042 and beyond so there never was any threat to its status

Kharkiv Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064347577 said:
Yet you still refuse to recognize Russian illegality and adventurism in Crimea/Ukraine. Without a quid-pro-quo that applies equally ... the international system for avoiding conflict is unworkable.

In this one issue, I see Russia's response to the events that unfolded in Kiev as both reasonable, and predictable. To your other point, do you have an idea of one that would be workable?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064347647 said:
You have to understand something also. Putin may have forcefully prevented any Ukraine association with NATO, but he also lost that country. He also did both himself and Russia irreparable harm in the eyes of the international community. Putin's Eurasian Economic Union is floundering. Russia's economy is cratering and European nations are now actively searching for energy alternatives to negate Putin's blackmail card. NATO will be re-arming. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan now understand the peril of being too closely aligned with Putin. When you add all the pluses and minuses, Putin has succeeded wildly in corralling Russia into an ever-shrinking patch of trust and viability.

Your making a blanket all inclusive statement. The entire international community is not just Western States and their allies, even though that's all anybody is usually talking about when they say, "the international community"!! And if the rest of what you said is true, then where's your concern, you should be delighted.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

In this one issue, I see Russia's response to the events that unfolded in Kiev as both reasonable, and predictable. To your other point, do you have an idea of one that would be workable?

If that is truly so then I shudder to think what response you would ever deem unreasonable. :shock:

You are basically giving carte blanche to every tinpot dictator on earth to do likewise.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

What EU/US involvement in Kiev ? I'm still waiting for your evidence ?



If every nation in the world were to respond with armed force to something its neighbours might do the globe would be a smoking cinder. How can you possibly justify Russias actions in such terms ?



Pure fantasy as usual

In 2010 Ukraine and Russia had signed the Kharkiv pact guaranteeing Russia's Black Sea Fleet base until 2042 and beyond so there never was any threat to its status

Kharkiv Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol!!!!! What a freaking hypocrite. While you supported US pre-emptive war in Iraq, and support Israeli pre-emptive war in Iran, both based upon accusations of what somebody "might" do.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

If that is truly so then I shudder to think what response you would ever deem unreasonable. :shock:

You are basically giving carte blanche to every tinpot dictator on earth to do likewise.

I have no such authority. Nor have you any to prevent Russia from protecting themselves from their perceived threats.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Lol!!!!! What a freaking hypocrite. While you supported US pre-emptive war in Iraq, and support Israeli pre-emptive war in Iran, both based upon accusations of what somebody "might" do.

Another flamebait dodge :roll:

By all means please quote me where I have ever done so ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Another flamebait dodge :roll:

By all means please quote me where I have ever done so ?

Are you stating for the record that you are not and were not a supporter of the Iraq war, and that you do not support an Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear program?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I have no such authority. Nor have you any to prevent Russia from protecting themselves from their perceived threats.

Russia is clearly the biggest threat we Europeans now face. Our collective defence budgets are now about one third of what they were 25 years ago so we will need to re arm pretty dramatically in the face of this. This is no 'percieved' threat either but an actual one based on current events

An arms race with Russia is the very last thing our governments economies and people want, but whatever twisted logic makes you happy :(
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Are you stating for the record that you are not and wore not a supporter of the Iraq war, and that you do not support an Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear program?

Correct. So you will have to find a different smear tactic to flame with next time
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Correct. So you will have to find a different smear tactic to flame with next time

It really wasn't any tactic, it was indeed an assumption. If you didn't support Americas pre-emptive war in Iraq, and you don't support any Israeli pre-emptive attacks on Iran, then you have a consistency there that you get credit for.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable.
No it wasnt.

To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether.
?????? Seriously you don't think there is any military action happening in Ukraine right now?

You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
Aside from that never having been a possibility, Putin never claimed that as the reason he was invading, in fact he denied that he was invading until long after he had control of Crimea and is still denying that he is invading eastern Ukraine.
It is still not a reason to invade an annex part of another country. Well I suppose according to your twisted logic it would be OK for the USA to invade and annex Russia because it would be in their best interests.

Now do you have any actual reason why it is OK for Putin to invade and annex part of another country or are you gonna repeat BS and continue to worship a megalomaniac dictator because you hate the USA so much?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Russia is clearly the biggest threat we Europeans now face. Our collective defence budgets are now about one third of what they were 25 years ago so we will need to re arm pretty dramatically in the face of this. This is no 'percieved' threat either but an actual one based on current events

An arms race with Russia is the very last thing our governments economies and people want, but whatever twisted logic makes you happy :(

Ok, I'm not really sure what that means because I'm pretty sure neither of us want to see another arms race with Russia. Although, I'm not willing to dismiss the notion that there would be people that would benefit from it. Nor that such people are amongst those with the power to either prevent it or pursue it.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

No it wasn't.


?????? Seriously you don't think there is any military action happening in Ukraine right now?


Aside from that never having been a possibility, Putin never claimed that as the reason he was invading, in fact he denied that he was invading until long after he had control of Crimea and is still denying that he is invading eastern Ukraine.
It is still not a reason to invade an annex part of another country. Well I suppose according to your twisted logic it would be OK for the USA to invade and annex Russia because it would be in their best interests.

Now do you have any actual reason why it is OK for Putin to invade and annex part of another country or are you gonna repeat BS and continue to worship a megalomaniac dictator because you hate the USA so much?

To the bolded, no point in going beyond that on the basis that we disagree on that.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It really wasn't any tactic, it was indeed an assumption. If you didn't support Americas pre-emptive war in Iraq, and you don't support any Israeli pre-emptive attacks on Iran, then you have a consistency there that you get credit for.

If hypothetically the US had done the same thing to Canada as Russia is doing to Ukraine I'd have been just as scathing in my condemnation of it. I'm not a xenpohobic bigot and just call a spade a spade.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Ok, I'm not really sure what that means because I'm pretty sure neither of us want to see another arms race with Russia. Although, I'm not willing to dismiss the notion that there would be people that would benefit from it. Nor that such people are amongst those with the power to either prevent it or pursue it.

I think you would find 'such people' very hard to find over here.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

To the bolded, no point in going beyond that on the basis that we disagree on that.
Yes there is because even if true (which it isn't) it does not give Putin the right to invade and annex part of another country
However I agree it is rather pointless as you have shown you will defend Putin's actions with whatever no matter how illogical your case may be.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

If hypothetically the US had done the same thing to Canada as Russia is doing to Ukraine I'd have been just as scathing in my condemnation of it. I'm not a xenpohobic bigot and just call a spade a spade.

Or, you looked at a heart, and called it a spade.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yes there is because even if true (which it isn't) it does not give Putin the right to invade and annex part of another country
However I agree it is rather pointless as you have shown you will defend Putin's actions with whatever no matter how illogical your case may be.

Yes, I'll be here defending Putin, IN THIS CASE, mind you.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Or, you looked at a heart, and called it a spade.

There is certainly no 'heart' to be found in any of this. Putins plan is continuing with his latest terror attacks at a peace rally in Kharkiv (just like I had predicted would happen months ago). So its Kharkiv's turn next an Oblast with just 25% ethnic Russians and one of the most populous in Ukraine. I wouldn't want to be one of the 75% majority waiting for the shelling to start :(
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

How do you know the act of terrorism in Kharkov is "Putins plan"? SBU told you? One year has passed, they still can't find the ones who shot 100 people in Maidan. But in Kharkov the new who blew up the "pro-Ukrainian" rally in just one hour. Miracle, pure miracle.

The video of the moment of explosion.



The population of Kharkov is 1.4 million people. As everybody can see the whole bunch of people attended the "pro-Ukrainian" rally. Maybe several hundreds. Most of them in military uniform.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
I'm still waiting for your evidence ?
That is simple obvious reality.

That the USA was intent on the opposite is another simple obvious reality.


============================================


Simpleχity;1064347577 said:
Yet you still refuse to recognize Russian illegality and adventurism in Crimea/Ukraine. Without a quid-pro-quo that applies equally ... the international system for avoiding conflict is unworkable.
There is no such thing as any "quid-pro-quo that applies equally".

The world is not a fair or equal place, and never has been.

Welcome to the real world.


=============================================


Russia is clearly the biggest threat we Europeans now face. Our collective defence budgets are now about one third of what they were 25 years ago so we will need to re arm pretty dramatically in the face of this. This is no 'percieved' threat either but an actual one based on current events

An arms race with Russia is the very last thing our governments economies and people want, but whatever twisted logic makes you happy :(
This is really a smart intelligent summary, so why would not the Europeans embrace Russia as their friend and ally as Russia has always been?

Instead Europe is aligning with the belligerent warmonger USA in direct opposition to the smart intelligent words quoted above.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

How do you know the act of terrorism in Kharkov is "Putins plan"? SBU told you? One year has passed, they still can't find the ones who shot 100 people in Maidan. But in Kharkov the new who blew up the "pro-Ukrainian" rally in just one hour. Miracle, pure miracle.

The video of the moment of explosion.



The population of Kharkov is 1.4 million people. As everybody can see the whole bunch of people attended the "pro-Ukrainian" rally. Maybe several hundreds. Most of them in military uniform.


Yep, and there's probably going to be many more "miracles" in Ukraine.
 
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