U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Montecresto · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
I'd of supported it if Bush was a cronies for another country. In my book, that counts as a treason.

I've asked others this, but I'm specifically addressing you with this because you have demonstrated that while we may disagree on a wide range of topics, you are at least fair minded for the most part and have shown intelligence in your post. I have proposed a compromise to this whole Ukrainian mess that I think is the only way to end the conflict and that is to break up Ukraine, have Russia do whatever it wants with the East and allow the West to join with NATO. If Russia really is concerned with it's counterparts in the region, then this gets them out from the rule of Kiev. On the other hand, if this is just Putin flexing Russian Military might, this puts a stop to the conflict unless Putin wants to expand this into a much larger conflict.

Oh I agree. As a matter of fact, what Russia would have been fine with is for Ukraine to remain wholly independent, but within a Russian orbit of influence. Just like folks refuse to accept the stated reasons that so many Muslims in the Middle East are disgruntled with the US/West, instead ascribing their own reasons, we have people refusing to listen to what Putin has complained about for a decade or better. NATO has expanded East a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union. I believe we're seeing a foot down on this.

Hamster Buddha · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Oh I agree. As a matter of fact, what Russia would have been fine with is for Ukraine to remain wholly independent, but within a Russian orbit of influence. Just like folks refuse to accept the stated reasons that so many Muslims in the Middle East are disgruntled with the US/West, instead ascribing their own reasons, we have people refusing to listen to what Putin has complained about for a decade or better. NATO has expanded East a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union. I believe we're seeing a foot down on this.

In this case, the bold statement are not mutually compatible though. To be honest, Putin doesn't fear a military invasion from the West, what he fears (and many of the old school Soviet era buddies do) is the influx of Western ideals. Making a country NATO just removes a card that Russia could play from their hand. Hence why Putin has fought so hard on this.

Montecresto said:
Seems to me Putin would jump on that compromise.

Have you seen the peace agreement by any chance yet? I haven't seen it on any of the usual MSM outlets yet.

Zyphlin · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Moderator's Warning:

Folks. The baiting and trolling going on here needs to stop. A lot of it is light, but it's becoming too repetitive at this point. One line posts that do nothing but run down another poster needs to stop. The insults to each other need to stop. And going forward in this thread the over the top attacking of another persons post needs to stop too because it's gotten way out of hand. Debate the topic civily.

I'm currently reviewing the thread and action may be taken for violations prior to this warning

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
I am not driving at any point. The term "native speaker" does mean something. Does it mean that everybody who is a native Russian speaker wants to be annexed by Russia? Of course not. But what is equally ludicrous is the attempt by Some to assert that there are no regional differences in the Ukraine, that all of the Ukranian population support the current government in Kiev and there is no native rebellion in the East.

As you can see by this demographic of the last census. You are asking the majority to bear a very high price indeed to accomodate the wants of a very small minority who have been stirred up by the Russians for their own ends after 23 years of living peacefully together. The ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk number about 1.5 million of Ukraines 45 million and don't even represent a majority in those oblasts

JP Cusick · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
No, they just do it to Muslim countries.

I see this as very relevant, in that the USA had become accustomed to being the Bully against the more vulnerable Muslim Countries and the USA got cocky.

Then we tried to push around Russia and found out that Russia is not going to be Bullied by our petty tactics.

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
Then we tried to push around Russia and found out that Russia is not going to be Bullied by our petty tactics.

And how did the US do this to Russia ? Money ? Guns ? Troops ?

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever supporting this contention

Roadvirus · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
This backfired though, Crimea is gone and as they (the Ukrainian army) continues to do things like use banned weapons like DC cluster bombs, they further loose credibility while Russia gains.

You get all hot and bothered over Ukraine's use of cluster bombs...
Are you just as upset with the anti-aircraft weapons Russian-backed terrorists used to down that passenger jet?

Roadvirus · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Putin can do whatever the **** he wants and he won't be listening to your protestations.

No, he can't do whatever he wants.

As to NATO, they have expanded a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union.

Only because the old Soviet nations have voluntarily joined NATO...they weren't forced into it.

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
You get all hot and bothered over Ukraine's use of cluster bombs...
Are you just as upset with the anti-aircraft weapons Russian-backed terrorists used to down that passenger jet?

I think the point being deliberately missed here is that Ukraine would not need to be using anything to defend itself with were it not under attack by Russia and its proxies in the first place

JP Cusick · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
And how did the US do this to Russia ? Money ? Guns ? Troops ?

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever supporting this contention

You have been given the info here in this thread, so just because you deny or reject the info does not mean that you have not been given it.

So yes evidence and proof has been given for all here to see.

And the USA did that to Russia by our belligerent manipulation and interference in the Ukraine, as if that is not known.

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
You have been given the info here in this thread, so just because you deny or reject the info does not mean that you have not been given it

If that is so then you'll have no problem citing it then but before you inevitably clutch at your straw again be sure and familiarise yourself with post #376

So yes evidence and proof has been given for all here to see.

Funny how nobody but you has seen it then ?

And the USA did that to Russia by our belligerent manipulation and interference in the Ukraine, as if that is not known.

And again and for the umpteenth time. Please provide any physical and verifiable evidence whatsoever of US 'belligerent manipulation and interference in the Ukraine' ? :roll:

Montecresto · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
In this case, the bold statement are not mutually compatible though. To be honest, Putin doesn't fear a military invasion from the West, what he fears (and many of the old school Soviet era buddies do) is the influx of Western ideals. Making a country NATO just removes a card that Russia could play from their hand. Hence why Putin has fought so hard on this.

Have you seen the peace agreement by any chance yet? I haven't seen it on any of the usual MSM outlets yet.

Reuters has the best thing up on it yet. It appears to be a cease fire more so than a lasting peace deal. Putin retains operational control of the border.

Montecresto · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
You get all hot and bothered over Ukraine's use of cluster bombs...
Are you just as upset with the anti-aircraft weapons Russian-backed terrorists used to down that passenger jet?

That bull**** again, sorry, when there has been confirmation of the party responsible for the downing of that jet, we can have that discussion.

Montecresto · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
No, he can't do whatever he wants.

Only because the old Soviet nations have voluntarily joined NATO...they weren't forced into it.

NATO's Eastward Expansion: Did the West Break Its Promise to Moscow?

By Uwe Klußmann, Matthias Schepp and Klaus Wiegrefe

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has accused the West of breaking promises made after the fall of the Iron Curtain, saying that NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe violated commitments made during the negotiations over German reunification. Newly discovered documents from Western archives support the Russian position.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...est-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
And how did the US do this to Russia ? Money ? Guns ? Troops ?

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever supporting this contention

From Der Spiegel which is one of the best at investigative journalism in the world.

Good article on why Russia has a major issue with whats going on.

Another one to drive the point home.

Since 1990 NATO has expanded towards Russian borders. Putin in 2008 drew a line in the sand that Ukraine and Georgia was untouchable and ANY attempt to influence them would cause a reaction from Russia.

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
From Der Spiegel which is one of the best at investigative journalism in the world.

Good article on why Russia has a major issue with whats going on.

Another one to drive the point home.

Since 1990 NATO has expanded towards Russian borders. Putin in 2008 drew a line in the sand that Ukraine and Georgia was untouchable and ANY attempt to influence them would cause a reaction from Russia.

And if the Ukraine had been just about to join the NATO alliance you might have a valid point. If NATO or the US wanted the Ukraine in the alliance so badly it could have had it for free 20 years ago with Russia in no position to do anything about it

Why wait till now ?

Montecresto · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
From Der Spiegel which is one of the best at investigative journalism in the world.

Good article on why Russia has a major issue with whats going on.

Another one to drive the point home.

Since 1990 NATO has expanded towards Russian borders. Putin in 2008 drew a line in the sand that Ukraine and Georgia was untouchable and ANY attempt to influence them would cause a reaction from Russia.

Spot on.

The US can act effectively in Ukraine only with the agreement of Germany and other EU states. In today’s increasingly complex world, its only superpower is no longer all-powerful and must act in consultation with others. Its waning political power and plummeting moral authority are imposing serious constraints on its still-formidable military capability—Pax Americana no longer rules.

In this context Germany, under Merkel’s canny leadership, has quietly emerged as a counterweight to the US, in both the EU and NATO. Germany did not support the abortive US-sponsored NATO intervention in Libya in 2011 and it opposed US attempts last year to have NATO endorse Obama’s Iraq intervention against Islamic State. When Merkel was in Australia for the G20 summit in November she said publicly that, for her, war is not an option. Patient negotiation is the only way forward, including with Putin.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/open-...-ceased-to-be-instrument-of-us-foreign-policy

flogger · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Spot on.

And had the Ukraine been about to join NATO it would be

Only problem with this strawman argument is that it wasn't

SBu · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
I haven't disputed that the ban isn't universally accepted.

The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer and stockpile of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. The convention was adopted on 30 May 2008 in Dublin,[6] and was opened for signature on 3 December 2008 in Oslo. It entered into force on 1 August 2010, six months after it was ratified by 30 states.[2] As of January 2015, 108 states have signed the treaty and 89 have ratified it or acceded to it.[3]

Hopefully you are able to make the next logical link then to stop saying 'banned' weapons as they are not in the countries deploying them (or at least disclaimer your comments with that information). Clearly if a certain thing is banned in one country and not in another, the latter country would not refer to it as a 'banned' thing within their own country, and nor would the former refer to it as a banned thing in the latter country.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Yep, whatever happened to the virtue of self detemination? A little hypocrisy huh.

You people really need to stop with your proven lies, aren't you embarrassed of the continuous pwning? The overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukraine, even in Donetsk and Luhansk the majority of citizens are Ukrainian not Russian, the referendums were completely fraudulent as they were held after the Russian terrorists turned them into armed camps ruled by fear and murder. And if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 60% ethnic Russian population voted for annexation by Russia then I have a really good deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
From Der Spiegel which is one of the best at investigative journalism in the world.

Good article on why Russia has a major issue with whats going on.

Another one to drive the point home.

Since 1990 NATO has expanded towards Russian borders. Putin in 2008 drew a line in the sand that Ukraine and Georgia was untouchable and ANY attempt to influence them would cause a reaction from Russia.

The EU is not NATO, the RF waged economic warfare against the Ukraine prompting EUROMAIDAN because they were attempting to join the EU trading association over the laughable customs union of Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Russia, not the NATO defense pact.

flogger · Feb 13, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
The EU is not NATO, the RF waged economic warfare against the Ukraine prompting EUROMAIDAN because they were attempting to join the EU trading association over the laughable customs union of Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Russia, not the NATO defense pact.

It doesn't matter what you say they won't be convinced. It doesn't matter that the US has made no diplomatic overtures to Ukraine about potential NATO membership, nor that the other Eastern European nations who asked to join had fairly legitimate security concerns of their own after 45 years of Soviet oppression. Those concerns now amply realised given Russia's current actions against a non aligned neighbour. All that matters is the demonization of the US anyway and anyhow. Its really sad

Montecresto · Feb 13, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
You people really need to stop with your proven lies, aren't you embarrassed of the continuous pwning? The overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukraine, even in Donetsk and Luhansk the majority of citizens are Ukrainian not Russian, the referendums were completely fraudulent as they were held after the Russian terrorists turned them into armed camps ruled by fear and murder. And if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 60% ethnic Russian population voted for annexation by Russia then I have a really good deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn.

Western propaganda!

Montecresto · Feb 13, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
The EU is not NATO, the RF waged economic warfare against the Ukraine prompting EUROMAIDAN because they were attempting to join the EU trading association over the laughable customs union of Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Russia, not the NATO defense pact.

Everybody knows the difference between NATO and the European Union. Your false characterisation of Russia's negotiations with Ukraine diminish your argument. Ukraine applied and subsequently withdrew their application to join NATO. They negotiated with the EU and Russia on economic alliance and chose Russia in the end, that is where the West and face, your got their knickers in a knot. Deal with it because Russia drew their line.

Quag · Feb 13, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Everybody knows the difference between NATO and the European Union. Your false characterisation of Russia's negotiations with Ukraine diminish your argument. Ukraine applied and subsequently withdrew their application to join NATO. They negotiated with the EU and Russia on economic alliance and chose Russia in the end, that is where the West and face, your got their knickers in a knot. Deal with it because Russia drew their line.

BS stop lying.
Putin bribed coerced Yanukovych to refuse Euromaidan and insted try to seek closer ties to Russia. His own party ousted him and he fled to Russia.
When Putin had failed to get Ukraine this way he invaided using tropps who had removed their insignia, denying it for weeks until he had full control.
It had nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Putin.

U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Montecresto

Hamster Buddha

Zyphlin

flogger

JP Cusick

The Expert

flogger

Roadvirus

Heading North

Roadvirus

Heading North

flogger

JP Cusick

The Expert

flogger

Montecresto

Montecresto

Montecresto

austrianecon

flogger

Montecresto

flogger

SBu

face your

face your

flogger

Montecresto

Montecresto

Quag