• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

Then there is also the argument that government have to comply with the international law and national law, trust is fine but not at the expense of the law or legal procedures.
And if these legal proceedings take years and countries are overrun by terrorists then, at least in the opinion of the Dutch judiciary, justice was done.
And if other countries would not torture (Pakistan) or other governments ask rogue torturing government to torture on their behalf, this all would be a non issue. This all started with the torture of this guy, if he had not been tortured, the Dutch government would already have been able to extradite him.
My understanding s that the threat of torture is enough (with enhanced interrogation unmentioned).

The Dutch have taken their position, which is as it should be, but they do seem rather docile in the face of Islamic aggression and, as we know, their war record in recent memory has been 'spotty'.
 
Judges are not bureaucrats, they are the guardians of justice.
They are titles and they offer job security. Like any other government employees, some are better than others. I'm not in awe of any of them.
Gitmo? Last time I checked long court dates are also happening in other countries, not just the Netherlands.
And with the accompanying line-ups no doubt. Any backlogs at all?
Also, this has been up and down the entire court system, all the way up to the supreme court and back again. Don't come up with nonsense of slow court proceedings.
You don't see the oxymoron there?
 
And if these legal proceedings take years and countries are overrun by terrorists then, at least in the opinion of the Dutch judiciary, justice was done.
My understanding s that the threat of torture is enough (with enhanced interrogation unmentioned).

The Dutch have taken their position, which is as it should be, but they do seem rather docile in the face of Islamic aggression and, as we know, their war record in recent memory has been 'spotty'.

And if torture would not have been used it would not even have taken months/less than a year. And justice is done if when a legally sound decision was made.

Your understanding say nothing because in this case actual torture was used against this suspect.

And our war record has been "spotty"? That just shows you know crap all about the Netherlands or our armed forces.
 
They are titles and they offer job security. Like any other government employees, some are better than others. I'm not in awe of any of them. And with the accompanying line-ups no doubt. Any backlogs at all?
You don't see the oxymoron there?

No, they are not just titles and they offer only some job security. They are judges until age 70 but judges can be let go if they are no longer capable to perform their duties or if they were convicted of a crime (for which no longer appeals are possible).

You may not be aware of any, I do know some.

Which court does not have back logs, but the decision of the court has to be made in a timely manner.

And no, no oxymoron IMHO.
 
And if torture would not have been used it would not even have taken months/less than a year. And justice is done if when a legally sound decision was made.
Your understanding say nothing because in this case actual torture was used against this suspect. And our war record has been "spotty"? That just shows you know crap all about the Netherlands or our armed forces.
I read of contemporary Dutch involvement here. Military history of the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it is 'spotty', even excluding Srebrenica, with politics often interfering with the committed job at hand. I fear this is what's happening with this extradition case. I believe anti Americanism plays too great a role in the Dutch culture and politics and this will eventually be to their own detriment. They are certainly more concerned with Islamophobia than they ever were with Yankophobia.
 
I read of contemporary Dutch involvement here. Military history of the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it is 'spotty', even excluding Srebrenica, with politics often interfering with the committed job at hand. I fear this is what's happening with this extradition case. I believe anti Americanism plays too great a role in the Dutch culture and politics and this will eventually be to their own detriment. They are certainly more concerned with Islamophobia than they ever were with Yankophobia.

You call that spotty, I do not. The whole Srebenica disaster was not just down to the Dutch protectors but to the entire failure of the UN in that region. You cannot expect a lightly armored unit to stop a much larger better armed military force.

Anti-Americanism in the Netherlands :lamo :lamo :lamo if that is your attitude then :2wave:
 
What an insulting and arrogant act by yet another snobby European nation, this time the Netherlands.

If they want to play this game, we should kick Shell Oil and Unilever out of the United States. Ban them from selling any of their product in our country. Then we'll see how arrogant they want to be. SMH.
 
You call that spotty, I do not. The whole Srebenica disaster was not just down to the Dutch protectors but to the entire failure of the UN in that region. You cannot expect a lightly armored unit to stop a much larger better armed military force.

Anti-Americanism in the Netherlands :lamo :lamo :lamo if that is your attitude then :2wave:
You sincerely don't know about any anti Americanism in Holland? And, of course, it's never the fault of any Europeans.
 
You sincerely don't know about any anti Americanism in Holland? And, of course, it's never the fault of any Europeans.

No, not a lot of Anti-Americanism. Loads of US companies have offices here, I personally live close to a US army base.

And I did not say it was never the fault of any Europeans. In fact it was the fault of the people who sent a lightly armored unit to Srebrenica and from what I remember the ****ing French who did not want to sent air support.

A small force of Dutch UN troops stationed in the town repeatedly requested air support from Gen Janvier, who declined the requests - on one occasion because it had been submitted on the wrong form.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/199/40913.html

And no, there is plenty of blame to go around in Srebrenica but it was not just the fault of the Dutch, this was an international failure.
 
What an insulting and arrogant act by yet another snobby European nation, this time the Netherlands.

If they want to play this game, we should kick Shell Oil and Unilever out of the United States. Ban them from selling any of their product in our country. Then we'll see how arrogant they want to be. SMH.

:roll:

No arrogance but the rule of law. And costing 800,000 people their job in the US seems a really good trade off. Plus loosing 240 million dollars in investments seems a good trade off.
 
So, despite your claim that
"the average American is a moral midget, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, or at least unable to take a stand against torture" you feel your questions were fairly phrased, without bias, and representative of the American people and not just your friends.

You background in science must have helped you with your global warming studies as well.

Global warming studies? You lost me there dude.

No, my sample of 8 has been effectively enlarged by the posts I read here on the internet, posts that defend torture, or more commonly, offer the supreme rationalization that depriving someone of sleep, or forcing them to stand naked, as long as it is done in the name of "interrogation", is somehow a patriotic act and certainly not a crime.

The sample of 8 was where I got to actually have a discussion face-to-face. Here in the cyber world, people are much more forthcoming with their pitiful rationalizations. But the results are pretty much the same--the average American has no problems with torture, will condone and approve torture.

Is that number over 50% of the very informal sample? I am sad to say that probably yes, it is more than 50%. Thanks for your input.
 
No, not a lot of Anti-Americanism. Loads of US companies have offices here, I personally live close to a US army base.
That has nothing to do with anti Americanism. I spent a few months in Holland and am very aware of its existence.
And I did not say it was never the fault of any Europeans. In fact it was the fault of the people who sent a lightly armored unit to Srebrenica and from what I remember the ****ing French who did not want to sent air support.
The French are Europeans as well but, in any case, none of the European nations, with the exception of the Brits, are all that impressive in times of trouble.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/199/40913.html And no, there is plenty of blame to go around in Srebrenica but it was not just the fault of the Dutch, this was an international failure.
Being unprepared and expecting others to bail you out when trouble inevitably starts has become a European habit.
 
Well now.....what do you think of that. They will not extradite a supporter of AQ, and we are not talking about Cheerleading supporter. Fruits of Feinstein's releasing of the Torture Report.....huh? What say ye?

Or, you know, the fruits of torturing people.
 
Nothing as long as you call it "Enhanced Interrogation" instead.

Political language...is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and gives the appearance of solidity to pure wind. Orwell.
 
Do you feel the two are the same?

I believe that it is possible to have some sort of process that one can call enhanced interrogation. Lie Detector Tests, for instance, are more a form of additional interrogation than a scientific test. From what I read though, we were just plain old torturing people and calling it a PC name.
 
I believe that it is possible to have some sort of process that one can call enhanced interrogation. Lie Detector Tests, for instance, are more a form of additional interrogation than a scientific test. From what I read though, we were just plain old torturing people and calling it a PC name.
Lie detector tests are not infallible and in the case of terrorists prepared to murder countless innocent people it might be wise to use more tried and true methods.
 
Lie detector tests are not infallible and in the case of terrorists prepared to murder countless innocent people it might be wise to use more tried and true methods.

They are not going to murder anybody while they are in US custody.
 
Lie detector tests are not infallible and in the case of terrorists prepared to murder countless innocent people it might be wise to use more tried and true methods.

All well and good, except that torture isn't a "tried and true" method. It's been tried... and tried and tried and tried, but it doesn't ****ing work.
 
All well and good, except that torture isn't a "tried and true" method. It's been tried... and tried and tried and tried, but it doesn't ****ing work.

Get ready... silly links are coming.
 
Back
Top Bottom