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Sammamish considers underage drinking fines for adults

Lursa

Lursa

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Sammamish considers underage drinking fines for adults

There are actually 2 towns proposing this. This is an article for Sammamish in WA St, about a half hr outside Seattle. They want to fine homeowners $500 for the first offense if the party is advertised on social media and involves underage drinking. The homeowners do not have to be home or aware of it to incur the penalty. I like this idea, altho I wish they would hold parents just as accountable for their kids texting and driving.

From the article:

"SAMMAMISH, Wash. -- A new crackdown on underage drinking in Sammamish could see fines up to $1,000 per offense directed at parents and legal guardians.

State law makes it illegal to provide alcohol to children. The proposed municipal ordinance in Sammamish would go a step further, holding adults accountable even when a teen throws a party while adults are not present.

"These juvenile drinking parties often times will get out of control. You'll see them spill out into the street," Sammamish Police Chief Nathan Elledge said. "Neighbors start to complain. So, it's not uncommon here."



These are local ordinances being proposed. Does anyone think that the community authorities are overstepping their bounds?
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

curious why you like the idea, if the fines are levied while the parents aren't home .
If they are not home, it can be assumed they do not know about teen drinking.

The other thought I have is teens do drink ( not all, but enough), and I'd rather see them drinking with an adult there to watch over them,
but I understand that is illegal and subject to sanctions
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Many of my friends and I had parties with alcohol, drugs and sex during high school that our parents knew nothing about, usually because they were out of town or out late for the evening. The only pay to prevent that is to hire a babysitter for kids up to 20 years and 11 months old. Even if effective, it will only encourage kids to have parties in locations that are not homes.

I had neighbors who held raves in remote locations to avoid being shut down by the police. At one of them someone fell out of a tree and was seriously injured. It took a long time for emergency services to be called and a medi-vac helicopter to arrive. The guy who fell out of the tree spent a lot of time in great pain before dying, an outcome that would have not happened if they were not forced to hold their parties in such remote areas.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
Sammamish considers underage drinking fines for adults

There are actually 2 towns proposing this. This is an article for Sammamish in WA St, about a half hr outside Seattle. They want to fine homeowners $500 for the first offense if the party is advertised on social media and involves underage drinking. The homeowners do not have to be home or aware of it to incur the penalty. I like this idea, altho I wish they would hold parents just as accountable for their kids texting and driving.

From the article:

"SAMMAMISH, Wash. -- A new crackdown on underage drinking in Sammamish could see fines up to $1,000 per offense directed at parents and legal guardians.

State law makes it illegal to provide alcohol to children. The proposed municipal ordinance in Sammamish would go a step further, holding adults accountable even when a teen throws a party while adults are not present.

"These juvenile drinking parties often times will get out of control. You'll see them spill out into the street," Sammamish Police Chief Nathan Elledge said. "Neighbors start to complain. So, it's not uncommon here."



These are local ordinances being proposed. Does anyone think that the community authorities are overstepping their bounds?
Click to expand...

Unless the fact that drinking would occur was publicly advertised, I don't think it is just to hold them responsible for it.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Paleocon said:
Unless the fact that drinking would occur was publicly advertised, I don't think it is just to hold them responsible for it.
Click to expand...

I think this is the base of the issue. Social media has enabled widespread advertising of these parties so that they get very large and out of control....moreso than the past. I know, I used to do the same thing when my folks went out of town. We had a pool. My parents probably could have been nailed legally if anyone had drowned. The only time the neighbors complained tho was when somebody brought fireworks :) And they called me first to say they'd call my parents if we didnt chill out.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Hard Truth said:
Many of my friends and I had parties with alcohol, drugs and sex during high school that our parents knew nothing about, usually because they were out of town or out late for the evening. The only pay to prevent that is to hire a babysitter for kids up to 20 years and 11 months old. Even if effective, it will only encourage kids to have parties in locations that are not homes.
Click to expand...

To be fair, it would only have to be up to the age of 18 because even though it is illegal in most places to drink before 21, the parents are no longer responsible for their children after they become legal adults.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Cephus said:
To be fair, it would only have to be up to the age of 18 because even though it is illegal in most places to drink before 21, the parents are no longer responsible for their children after they become legal adults.
Click to expand...

I dont believe that's the case for these local ordinances. Underage drinking is under 21. And it's the parent's property which they are being expected to control. Perhaps the parents would not be held responsible for a 21 yr old that left the party and killed someone driving home, but would for one that is 17 or 18?
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

annata said:
curious why you like the idea, if the fines are levied while the parents aren't home .
If they are not home, it can be assumed they do not know about teen drinking.

The other thought I have is teens do drink ( not all, but enough), and I'd rather see them drinking with an adult there to watch over them,
but I understand that is illegal and subject to sanctions
Click to expand...

I think the presumption is that the parents, home or not, are responsible for what takes place in their home.

And I think that it's illegal in most (not all) states for minor children to drink, even if parents are there. I dont think minors that arent their kids are allowed at all. So we're talking about the law here and the focus is out of control parties, that get super large because of social media postings.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
I dont believe that's the case for these local ordinances. Underage drinking is under 21. And it's the parent's property which they are being expected to control. Perhaps the parents would not be held responsible for a 21 yr old that left the party and killed someone driving home, but would for one that is 17 or 18?
Click to expand...

Once the person is 18 and a legal adult, the parent cannot be held accountable for their child, simply because it is their child. Whether the parent's allowing their house to be used for such a party might open them up to civil litigation, I don't know, but since we're talking about parents who had no clue this was going on, I wouldn't think so. Maybe they can be sued by another parent whose child went to the party, but not by the state.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
Sammamish considers underage drinking fines for adults

There are actually 2 towns proposing this. This is an article for Sammamish in WA St, about a half hr outside Seattle. They want to fine homeowners $500 for the first offense if the party is advertised on social media and involves underage drinking. The homeowners do not have to be home or aware of it to incur the penalty. I like this idea, altho I wish they would hold parents just as accountable for their kids texting and driving.

From the article:

"SAMMAMISH, Wash. -- A new crackdown on underage drinking in Sammamish could see fines up to $1,000 per offense directed at parents and legal guardians.

State law makes it illegal to provide alcohol to children. The proposed municipal ordinance in Sammamish would go a step further, holding adults accountable even when a teen throws a party while adults are not present.

"These juvenile drinking parties often times will get out of control. You'll see them spill out into the street," Sammamish Police Chief Nathan Elledge said. "Neighbors start to complain. So, it's not uncommon here."



These are local ordinances being proposed. Does anyone think that the community authorities are overstepping their bounds?
Click to expand...

Hmm... Mean old Mr. Wilson goes on vacation and someone (the paper boy?) posts a pool party invitation at his address. ;)

What crime did Mr. Wilson commit?
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

I read the article you linked and didn't see any reference to social media being used as additional punishment, which seems dubious in terms of constitutionality anyway.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

I think they are using this ordinance as a pretext to be able to subpoena phone records associated with the parties and arrest as many people as possible on as many offenses as possible, including sexting.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... Mean old Mr. Wilson goes on vacation and someone (the paper boy?) posts a pool party invitation at his address. ;)

What crime did Mr. Wilson commit?
Click to expand...

This is a good question and not one that I saw included in the proposal. It may be covered in the full initiative. To me, that is trespassing and a crime has been committed "against" the property owner.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Unrepresented said:
I read the article you linked and didn't see any reference to social media being used as additional punishment, which seems dubious in terms of constitutionality anyway.
Click to expand...

That's true....the fine isnt higher and the law isnt based on social media. I shouldnt have focused on that. When they were interviewing people here on the news, that was the focus, how the parties now get so big because kids go on social media and tell people, and then to make it worse, it's alot of people that dont know each other at all so there are more violent incidents.

So I guess that shouldnt...and doesnt...factor into the main concern which is, is it fair to hold the parents responsible?
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
This is a good question and not one that I saw included in the proposal. It may be covered in the full initiative. To me, that is trespassing and a crime has been committed "against" the property owner.
Click to expand...

If neither consent nor knowledge of the party need be proven then that matters not. Too often these "we must do something" laws backfire or are so poorly written or selectively enforced as to be meaningless. The first time a poor man gets evicted for paying the "party place" fine instead of his rent (or is jailed for not doing so) the law will be stricken by the courts. This is even more ridiculous than charging the vehicle's registered owner for a traffic camera moving violation and simply assuming that they were behind the wheel. The owner should not be held responsible for any unauthorized use of their property.

EDIT: Whoops, does the "party place" law even apply to rented property or does the landlord (property owner) get fined instead of the tenant?
 
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Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

ttwtt78640 said:
If neither consent nor knowledge of the party need be proven then that matters not. Too often these "we must do something" laws backfire or are so poorly written or selectively enforced as to be meaningless. The first time a poor man gets evicted for paying the "party place" fine instead of his rent (or is jailed for not doing so) the law will be stricken by the courts. This is even more ridiculous than charging the vehicle's registered owner for a traffic camera moving violation and simply assuming that they were behind the wheel. The owner should not be held responsible for any unauthorized use of their property.
Click to expand...

Well both suburbs where they are proposing this are very (very) affluent. That said of course there are some less affluent people and I'm sure it will be contested in the courts. Lots of deep pockets. They may not object to the fines but if kids are killed, then the liability issues and $$ skyrocket. They already do hold parents responsible if they knowingly let underage kids drink and something happens. This will solidify that law and make it easier to hold them responsible.

But yes, I do think it will be challenged in court.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
That's true....the fine isnt higher and the law isnt based on social media. I shouldnt have focused on that. When they were interviewing people here on the news, that was the focus, how the parties now get so big because kids go on social media and tell people, and then to make it worse, it's alot of people that dont know each other at all so there are more violent incidents.

So I guess that shouldnt...and doesnt...factor into the main concern which is, is it fair to hold the parents responsible?
Click to expand...
Parents are responsible for their children's actions either way, this is simply codifying the expectations and punishments as opposed to retroactively determining them.

It comes across a little Footloose-esque, but I don't know that it's unreasonable or doesn't benefit the public interest.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Again, unintended consequences need to be considered. For example, kids may start having their parties in abandoned buildings or out in the woods, which could result in worse outcomes.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Hard Truth said:
Again, unintended consequences need to be considered. For example, kids may start having their parties in abandoned buildings or out in the woods, which could result in worse outcomes.
Click to expand...

I really don't care. Everyone needs to learn that actions have consequences. If some kids die because they're being idiots and their parents didn't raise them properly, I'm fine with that.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Hard Truth said:
Again, unintended consequences need to be considered. For example, kids may start having their parties in abandoned buildings or out in the woods, which could result in worse outcomes.
Click to expand...

I think the point was that the outcomes had gotten quite serious. How are those places worse?

The interview comments were about social media making the parties known to way more numbers of people and that they were no longer people that the host knew. And so violence was more common. In some ways, at least those remote parties wouldnt destroy people's homes and wouldnt bother everyone else in the neighborhood.

One of the stories related to this last yr was a party that took place while parents were away, unknowing, and they came home to $10,000 damage.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Cephus said:
I really don't care. Everyone needs to learn that actions have consequences. If some kids die because they're being idiots and their parents didn't raise them properly, I'm fine with that.
Click to expand...

I dont necessarily disagree but just like with texting and driving, it's when someone else on the road gets killed.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Lursa said:
I dont necessarily disagree but just like with texting and driving, it's when someone else on the road gets killed.
Click to expand...

True, unfortunately there are sometimes casualties that you can't really avoid until people learn their lessons.
 
Re: Town in WA St. proposes fines for using social media for underage drinking partie

Cephus said:
True, unfortunately there are sometimes casualties that you can't really avoid until people learn their lessons.
Click to expand...

There are devices that can be installed on phones to prevent it during driving. I think that parents should have to install them on their driving age teens and if the kids dont have them or dont use them and kill or injure someone, the parents should be held responsible.
 
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