Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay

Look, I could understand the pastor refusing to do the funeral when they first approached him. But if he has this kind of bias, he should do the homework up front to find out if the dead person is gay or not.

Once the funeral is underway - there is no way he should have stopped and demanded that that pictures be removed. That is a gross dereliction of his pastoral duties in my opinion.

Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

LAKEWOOD — Hundreds of Vanessa Collier's friends and family gathered Saturday at New Hope Ministries, sitting before an open casket that held the woman they loved, when suddenly the minister overseeing her funeral stopped the service.

The memorial could not continue, Pastor Ray Chavez said, as long as pictures of Collier with the love of her life, the spouse she shared two children with, were to be displayed.

Chavez said there could be no images of Collier with her wife, Christina. There could be no indication that Collier was gay.

Outraged, those who loved Collier, 33, picked up programs, flowers and eventually the dead woman's casket itself, moving the service to a mortuary that — thankfully, they say — happened to be across the street.

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paddymcdougall said:

Look, I could understand the pastor refusing to do the funeral when they first approached him. But if he has this kind of bias, he should do the homework up front to find out if the dead person is gay or not.

Once the funeral is underway - there is no way he should have stopped and demanded that that pictures be removed. That is a gross dereliction of his pastoral duties in my opinion.

Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

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To the church's defense, this was a RELIGIOUS ceremony. That's a fine line you're walking. Do I disagree with what they did? Yes. But remember, it's their religious ceremony.

Pastor was wrong and not a very good example.

How hateful and harmful to her friends and family.

I guess the pastor forgot that only God may judge.....

paddymcdougall said:

Look, I could understand the pastor refusing to do the funeral when they first approached him. But if he has this kind of bias, he should do the homework up front to find out if the dead person is gay or not.

Once the funeral is underway - there is no way he should have stopped and demanded that that pictures be removed. That is a gross dereliction of his pastoral duties in my opinion.

Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

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They can do as they like, but I agree that they should have figured this out ahead of time.

Ikari said:

They can do as they like, but I agree that they should have figured this out ahead of time.

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I agree. The church appears to be an inner city ministry. I am suprised that they did not have a standard policy in place for funerals.

For example, I knew a Pastor who while permitting out law bikers to be given burial services at his church, also told them in advance what activities of the deceased could, and could not be actively displayed at the church. The full "biker" funeral with biker oriented eulogies, libations etc would need to occur at the grave site.

Ikari said:

They can do as they like, but I agree that they should have figured this out ahead of time.

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Exactly. What he did at the last minute - after the last minute? - was needlessly harmful.

Doesn't sound as if he left it to the last minute. They gave him a video including the couple kissing a week before the funeral. The article intimates they were told certain things couldn't be displayed at the funeral. Looks like they decided to include the material anyway and the pastor refused to proceed with the funeral. Probably thought there's no way he would refuse at that point.

The story sounds very incomplete. It would be interesting to know when this conversation occurred "Certain events were not going to be allowed to take place according to the church," Campanella said. "In talking with family we decided it would be best to have the services here."

The church didnt prevent the ceremony from continuing...the family and friends decided to move it. The church allowed the ceremony to be conducted but with the guidance photos of the deceased should not be allowed that showed her living the lifestyle that is in opposition to their faith.

The article mentions the Church offers 'hope' to drug addicts. I think thats noble. Now...if a family decided they wanted to place pictures at the ceremony of an individual shooting up because thats what the individual loved, that would be disallowed. And no...the two obviously arent the same but without question, the concept is the same. The church does not condone homosexuality. It does not condone what it believes to be sinful behavior. I can only assume that the church is going on the FULL doctrine presented by Christ.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

If you dont believe it to be a sin (and there is no reason you SHOULD) then you probably shouldnt attempt to celebrate a behavior and life lived in accordance to what the church holds as sinful in the building and church where that belief is held.

Lursa said:

How hateful and harmful to her friends and family.

I guess the pastor forgot that only God may judge.....

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Perhaps the Pastor remembered that God has in fact judged the behavior to be sinful.

paddymcdougall said:

Look, I could understand the pastor refusing to do the funeral when they first approached him. But if he has this kind of bias, he should do the homework up front to find out if the dead person is gay or not.

Once the funeral is underway - there is no way he should have stopped and demanded that that pictures be removed. That is a gross dereliction of his pastoral duties in my opinion.

Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

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Private property, they can do what they want.

VanceMack said:

Perhaps the Pastor remembered that God has in fact judged the behavior to be sinful.

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And God still may. That is up to God, not the pastor.

And since when dont churches allow sinners in? Er...they'd be empty, now wouldnt they? And not all of those sinners have renounced their sins.

WOW

In my opinion the pastor is complete, ignorant, hateful douchebag and im surprised somebody didnt punch him right in the face

With that said if this was a church it had ever "right" to do so unless there was some type of contract that stated otherwise. Its gross but thats how it is and how rights work.

Most certainly I would not pay them a dime or fight to get my money back if already paid but AGAIN that would be based on if there was a contract allowing or not allowing that.

Jerry said:

Private property, they can do what they want.

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Sure can. His ball, his bat, his rules. Doesn't make him any less an a-hole.

Lursa said:

And God still may. That is up to God, not the pastor.

And since when dont churches allow sinners in? Er...they'd be empty, now wouldnt they? And not all of those sinners have renounced their sins.

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They DO allow sinners in. Thats not the point. The point is they dont allow celebration of the sin. It seems like such a simple compromise. Have the ceremony there, celebrate her life. If you want to celebrate her sexuality as part of her life, have it someplace else. No harm...no foul...and good for everyone.

VanceMack said:

They DO allow sinners in. Thats not the point. The point is they dont allow celebration of the sin. It seems like such a simple compromise. Have the ceremony there, celebrate her life. If you want to celebrate her sexuality as part of her life, have it someplace else. No harm...no foul...and good for everyone.

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Why would they celebrate her 'sin?'

Would they celebrate an alcoholic's drinking? A wife beater's abuse? A bank robber's thefts?

No. They focus on forgiveness and remembering a PERSON, not a sin.

Lursa said:

Why would they celebrate her 'sin?'

Would they celebrate an alcoholic's drinking? A wife beater's abuse? A bank robber's thefts?

No. They focus on forgiveness and remembering a PERSON, not a sin.

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I completely agree...so why could the family not comply with their very basic requirement that she not be seen in pictures kissing her girlfriend?

VanceMack said:

I completely agree...so why could the family not comply with their very basic requirement that she not be seen in pictures kissing her girlfriend?

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Is kissing a loved one a sin? Or did the church just choose to interpret that? What if it was a married straight woman and they showed a pic of her kissing a man not her husband? Would everyone assume she was an adulteress?

Her life is her life....a complete picture, not a snapshot of things the church doesnt 'like' or chooses to call out. How about if she was toasting friends in a pic and they objected to her drinking alcohol? Do a lot of churches take license to do those things or just ones that want to force their own judgement on people? Rather than, again, letting God do so.

Lursa said:

Is kissing a loved one a sin? Or did the church just choose to interpret that? What if it was a married straight woman and they showed a pic of her kissing a man not her husband? Would everyone assume she was an adulteress?

Her life is her life....a complete picture, not a snapshot of things the church doesnt 'like' or chooses to call out. How about if she was toasting friends in a pic and they objected to her drinking alcohol? Do a lot of churches take license to do those things or just ones that want to force their own judgement on people? Rather than, again, letting God do so.

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What if the sky turned green and pooh stopped smelling like pooh?

The simple fact is the church and family disagreed on what should be allowed and the family, rather than comply, chose to take their party elsewhere. Why is this a problem? Is it just because gawdammit....they didnt get their way?

I dont think the family should have edited out people that were important to her. If they wanted to leave the pics in there then they should certainly be free to do so. Just hold the ceremony someplace else. Win win.

VanceMack said:

What if the sky turned green and pooh stopped smelling like pooh?

The simple fact is the church and family disagreed on what should be allowed and the family, rather than comply, chose to take their party elsewhere. Why is this a problem? Is it just because gawdammit....they didnt get their way?

I dont think the family should have edited out people that were important to her. If they wanted to leave the pics in there then they should certainly be free to do so. Just hold the ceremony someplace else. Win win.

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I never said the church couldnt do it. I pointed out why it was selective, intolerant in the face of tolerance of other sins, and cruel.

I've read the article.
The lesbian couple evidently had no pastor or friend or members of their families who could provide a pastor to perform a Christian burial but instead found Pastor Ray's church off the Internet because it was a convenient location. That's rather odd that none of their many friends couldn't cough up the name of a minister in the area that they personally knew.

Second, anytime a pastor does a funeral for someone he does not know, if he is a good pastor, he spends several hours interviewing family and friends as he wants to get to know the deceased so that he/she can comfort those in mourning of their loved one in remembering the good of the life of the deceased. Sounds like Pastor Roy did just that and found out that the deceased was in a same sex relationship and told them that part of the deceased's life he could not highlight. And they blew him off by highlighting it anyway and the funeral was then moved from the church and held at the funeral home.

There's a lot of folks out there that want a church wedding and a Christian burial but they don't want anything else required of them in between. A lot of ministers/pastors find funerals and weddings an opportunity to preach the Gospel. I think the time has come for pastors/ministers/preachers to limit themselves to those in their congregation or a loved one associated with their congregation instead of hiring out for a fee to perform a ceremony for just anyone. Hopefully Pastor Roy has learned that lesson.

11Bravo said:

To the church's defense, this was a RELIGIOUS ceremony. That's a fine line you're walking. Do I disagree with what they did? Yes. But remember, it's their religious ceremony.

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Absolutely it was their right, and like the church that fired the pregnant daycare employee for not getting married in a timely manner (again, the church's right), it paints a vivid picture of Christians as cruel and devoid of empathy.

I, for one, have zero problems with them showing their true colors.

Cardinal said:

Absolutely it was their right, and like the church that fired the pregnant daycare employee for not getting married in a timely mannered (again, the church's right), it paints a vivid picture of Christians as cold and devoid of empathy.

I, for one, have zero problems with them showing their true colors.

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That's a lie painted with such a broad brush that it would take more than two hands to hold it.
The Church, and I mean the body of believers not a denomination, is not viewed as a house for Saints but rather a hospital for Sinners. You will never experience forgiveness in this world like you do among true believers.

vesper said:

There's a lot of folks out there that want a church wedding and a Christian burial but they don't want anything else required of them in between.

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I agree and I dont understand it. I can think of a few reasons but find them mostly shallow and knee-jerk. One might do it to please their family I guess.

But those are just my personal and yes, judgmental, opinions.

vesper said:

That's a lie painted with such a broad brush that it would take more than two hands to hold it.
The Church, and I mean the body of believers not a denomination, is not viewed as a house for Saints but rather a hospital for Sinners. You will never experience forgiveness in this world like you do among true believers.

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And that's why the most terrifying thing I can think of is for religious people to determine anything about my life "for my own good." What religious fundamentalists will do to other human beings under the guise of "merciful" and "for their own good" is the strongest reason for a secular political system I can think of. If it weren't for the behavior of the church in this regard and the one with the pregnant daycare employee Americans might forget that, and so the church has done us all an enormous favor.