Family: Lakewood church stops woman's funeral because she was gay

Cardinal said:

You are extremely confused about my position, so I'll try again: I'm not advocating that religious fundamentalists with warped views of love and compassion share my morality, because I'm fully cognizant such a thing is impossible. No, I'll settle for religious fundamentalists being extremely upfront and honest about their worldview so we can all be reminded why secular societies are superior to theocracies. It's also why I'm always happy any time a pro-lifer publicly states that a woman should have the rapist's baby.

If you're still confused I'd be happy to bulletpoint my beliefs using shorter sentences.

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You're making perfect sense to me. Not sure why Vesper isn't getting it.

SheWolf said:

The article in the OP doesn't not say there was a pre arranged deal.

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That is what has come out in the thread, as people dove more into it.

cpwill said:

Yes. Because he had clearly said that he could not allow the church to be used to celebrate the homosexual lifestyle, specifically in the manner that they tried to. That was part of the deal - "Yes, we can do the funeral. But in order to hold true to our beliefs, we cannot do A, B, or C". They broke the deal.


To shift it to a much more mundane example, if I were to ask to come into your house, and you were to reply "certainly, only take off those muddy boots please", and my reply was to stomp into your house with my boots on and wipe them off on your carpet.... I can't exactly complain when you ask me to leave that you are somehow being cruel to me. You let me into your house and I refused to follow the rules you asked me to.

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Lie. The OP's linked article does not say that they were given a warning in advance.

Jack Fabulous said:

Apparently the family was told that he did not want anything "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle" as part of the service.

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Where is the proof that he told them ahead of time?

SheWolf said:

No, it's not in the link in the OP. If there is another site, then link that site. The link in the OP also says that the pastor has not reimbursed the family after stopping the funeral and kicking them out.

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If anyone needed evidence as to whether conservative/fundamentalist Christians are liars or not, the proof is in this thread. They lie.

Hard Truth said:

Lie. The OP's linked article does not say that they were given a warning in advance.

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That's interesting. I did not know that the OP's article is the only possible source of information in the universe.

:shrug: someone found it a few pages back. Feel free to read through.

vesper said:

So you want to call him a "cruel bastard" because he refused to go against what his faith teaches just to appease a few?
Even after he made it known that his church could not be used as a means to celebrate a same sex union?
Wow.....just wow.

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Um - was Jesus (in your faith) that harsh toward sinners? Really? WWJD?

cpwill said:

That is what has come out in the thread, as people dove more into it.

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Where did people dive into it? Where is the link to proof of that?

Jack Fabulous said:

Apparently the family was told that he did not want anything "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle" as part of the service.

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It does not say that they were told that in advance. They were told that in the middle of the funeral.

cpwill said:

That's interesting. I did not know that the OP's article is the only possible source of information in the universe.

:shrug: someone found it a few pages back. Feel free to read through.

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There are no more links in this entire thread other than the original link being linked to a second time.

cpwill said:

That is what has come out in the thread, as people dove more into it.

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or lied.

Amandi said:

Where is the proof that he told them ahead of time?

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I am going by what I have read in this thread. If you have something to offer which refutes that, by all means...

cpwill said:

That is what has come out in the thread, as people dove more into it.

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I read another article online and watched the video in the linked article, and I didn't find anything suggesting the pastor gave them an advance notice of not showing pictures of the lesbian couple kissing, embracing, etc. The entire incident occurred on the day of the funeral, and the family gave the pastor a memorial video prior to the day of the funeral that included the couple kissing and embracing. He didn't complain upon receiving the memorial video.

Amandi said:

Where did people dive into it? Where is the link to proof of that?

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:shrug: I don't know - I took it for what it was worth. If it's not correct, it's not correct.

If the church did establish ground rules, then do you agree that it was those who broke the agreement who violated trust?

Amandi said:

There are no more links in this entire thread other than the original link being linked to a second time.

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Yeah... it appears somebody introduced false information into the thread, misread something, or failed to provide a link... :shrug:

Hard Truth said:

or lied.

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:shrug: it's not impossible. The OP article only quotes those who are upset, however, so I'll admit I look at it with a bit of a skeptical eye.


If the pastor didn't know the woman was an active lesbian, then he A) didn't do his homework and B) probably handled an awkward situation as well as he could, if badly.

I have a question...
Since when is expecting Churches and those who congregate there to throw out thousands of years of a belief system over an social issue that has changed in the last 10 year, become "reasonable"?

It's going to take some time for things to change folks...

Amandi said:

There are no more links in this entire thread other than the original link being linked to a second time.

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I verified that finding. There are no links in this thread showing that there was advanced warning provided about the anti-lesbian taboo.

Hard Truth said:

It does not say that they were told that in advance. They were told that in the middle of the funeral.

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It was my understanding that they were told the funeral could not proceed once the pastor saw what was put on display. Just like I told another member a few posts up, if you have something that refutes that the family was told what was not to be part of the service, post it.

Jack Fabulous said:

Apparently the family was told that he did not want anything "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle" as part of the service.

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Even if they were told that - how is showing a loving couple embracing and kissing "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle"?

What exactly IS celebrating a "homosexual lifestyle" anyway? gay pride flags all over the vestry? Dykes on bikes driving up the aisle? Sex on the altar? Or is it a celebration of one's family and friends, which all of us do?

Were they ever told "no pictures of the spouses together"? That would be so cruel. How can you cut out the loved ones of the dead person?

He should have just said "I"m sorry, I don't do funerals for lesbian couples" and let them find someone else.

Or, when he realized that his interpretation of "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle" was different than theirs, he should have had the grace, humility and love of humankind to continue anyway.

SheWolf said:

He could have complained to the family when he saw the memorial video of her kissing her wife, but the family says he didn't raise any concern. Furthermore, he has hasn't refunded the family the funeral costs he charged them.

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The funeral home is the place where the showing occurs. Anywhere from one day to two. They are the ones who make up the videos using family photos part of their package deal along with asking the family to provide photos that they can display throughout the showing room. The family of the deceased picks out the casket, the vault, the memorial cards, the visitors book, the type of music to be played during the showing, all provided for a price. The service, Eulogy itself can either be performed at the funeral home or a church. These people wanted the Eulogy at the church. They chose the church that was directly across the street from the funeral home. From the OP it appears they chose the church over the funeral home because of the spacious seating versus what the funeral home could provide. Unfortunately for them, in choosing the church meant abiding by their stipulations.

I think I know what happened,..... the funeral home was responsible for taking the body across the street to the church from the funeral home. They also took all the flowers and video they produced and family pictures displayed at the funeral home provided by the family into the church and set them up. Instead of the family members having the video and pictures removed that were against the agreement with the church, the pastor refused the service.

These people were not interested in a Christian burial but wanted to use the church for the service because it could accommodate more people comfortably. And when they got what they wanted, they were unwilling to meet the pastor's terms expecting him to accommodate them even further and it didn't work out in their favor which resulted in the body being removed from the church and back across the street to funeral home where they all complained that it was cramped and many had to stand. Poor babies.

Ockham said:

I have a question...
Since when is expecting Churches and those who congregate there to throw out thousands of years of a belief system over an social issue that has changed in the last 10 year, become "reasonable"?

It's going to take some time for things to change folks...

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The only reasonable choice is the one that the left gives you. What, are you new here?

Ockham said:

I have a question...
Since when is expecting Churches and those who congregate there to throw out thousands of years of a belief system over an social issue that has changed in the last 10 year, become "reasonable"?

It's going to take some time for things to change folks...

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Pretty sure the church has been burying gays and lesbians since, well, the church began.....

"The eviction of a funeral mid-service at a Lakewood church could have been avoided had a clash of beliefs between a pastor and a lesbian family been vented beforehand, religious leaders said Wednesday....But religious authorities who know Chavez say while legitimate criticism can be made about a failure to communicate church theology to the gay family, expecting the pastor to alter his beliefs to accommodate anyone would be a sin itself....Higley said it never crossed her mind that her family's lifestyle would be an issue because "we paid to use their facility only. We brought in our own pastor to facilitate....."
Beliefs clash at lesbian's funeral evicted from church in Lakewood - The Denver Post

The lack of quotes coming directly from the pastor isn't due to the media not trying. The local news contacted the pastor for comment, and they hung up the phone when they realized it was the media. I guess he doesn't want to talk about it publicly.... :shrug:

But the family tells the media they want their money refunded, and that looks really bad for now.

cpwill said:

:shrug: it's not impossible. The OP article only quotes those who are upset, however, so I'll admit I look at it with a bit of a skeptical eye.


If the pastor didn't know the woman was an active lesbian, then he A) didn't do his homework and B) probably handled an awkward situation as well as he could, if badly.

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