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Obama Proposes 2 Years of Free Community College

I think part of the problem now is that no job is that safe and there are no worst case scenario fall back jobs for people in which they can have some psychological comfort. "If worse comes to worst, I can work in the <factory> <mine> <plant>." No fallback position and the likelihood of people having to have multiple careers over their lives affect confidence, and confidence affects the economy. We may not have experienced an economic depression, but I think the public psyche has been fighting a psychological one. Hopefully the job scene will stabilize enough in the places where they are still very much in flux to give people confidence again that they do not have to go on welfare forever or move to New York and wash dishes with the Guatemalans.

Sure.

Maybe that's a good reason why we should be supporting a broad based curriculum in college at the Bachelors degree level, rather than specialization. If a worker has a solid liberal arts education (not to exclude math and science), then it shouldn't be all that difficult to retrain for a different career on an as needed bases.

Many masters degrees can be obtained in a year or a year plus a summer, assuming that the student has the prerequests for that masters. And a associates in a particular field could probably also be acquired in a year, if the student already has all the general ed requirements. In today's world, an employer might advertise for someone with a BS in a particular subject, but may be perfectly fine with hiring someone who has an AA degree in that field as long as they also have a Bachelors degree (in anything).

Few working adults who find that their job skills have become obsoleted are going to be very enthusiastic about starting from scratch and attending college for four years. But if they could obtain education/creditials for a different field in a year or so, it's goint to be a lot less intimidating to them, and a lot more doable.

All of this is why I believe that the Bachelors degree should be a broad based liberal arts degree, taking a course or two in just about every subject one can imagine, and allowing the masters degree to be the "major". Lot's of colleges now offer "Bachelors of Interdisciplinary Arts", and it sounds a little hokey, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense for someone who is grad school bound.
 
If that were true, they wouldnt use the word free.

It's a matter of perspective, and the way they are using the word. It could be free to the individual (as in costing the individual no more than not attending college) relative to our current system.

I agree that most everyone realizes that there are costs associated with everything, but when there is no additional cost to the person who attends college, relatively, it's free.
 
Just for future reference. Everyone knows that nothing is free. Everyone knows that if you have a public program that it is paid for with taxes. Everyone knows this.

you are both correct an incorrect.

it's certainly not "free".... but our taxes do not pay for it.
 
I'm confused about this because wasn't it basically already free? When I went to community college I remember paying next to nothing and I received Pell Grants (technically they paid me).
 
I'm confused about this because wasn't it basically already free? When I went to community college I remember paying next to nothing and I received Pell Grants (technically they paid me).

https://trends.collegeboard.org/sit...mmunity-colleges-ed-enrollment-debt-brief.pdf

A few years ago the average cost was apparently around $2700/yr, but that doesn't include books and fees or living expenses. It's probably higher now, and certainly higher in some areas. Not everyone get's a pell grant either.

But you are right, it's not a huge sum. In my state, we have a state lottery scholarship, three different levels of awards, depending on ones hs grades and SAT score. The top level scholarship would cover the full price of community college, plus books and fees, plus a chunk of spending money, but even the lowest level pays for most of our local community college. Students in the bottom half of their hs class don't get crap, but maybe it should be that way.
 
Sure.

Maybe that's a good reason why we should be supporting a broad based curriculum in college at the Bachelors degree level, rather than specialization. If a worker has a solid liberal arts education (not to exclude math and science), then it shouldn't be all that difficult to retrain for a different career on an as needed bases.

Many masters degrees can be obtained in a year or a year plus a summer, assuming that the student has the prerequests for that masters. And a associates in a particular field could probably also be acquired in a year, if the student already has all the general ed requirements. In today's world, an employer might advertise for someone with a BS in a particular subject, but may be perfectly fine with hiring someone who has an AA degree in that field as long as they also have a Bachelors degree (in anything).

Few working adults who find that their job skills have become obsoleted are going to be very enthusiastic about starting from scratch and attending college for four years. But if they could obtain education/creditials for a different field in a year or so, it's goint to be a lot less intimidating to them, and a lot more doable.

All of this is why I believe that the Bachelors degree should be a broad based liberal arts degree, taking a course or two in just about every subject one can imagine, and allowing the masters degree to be the "major". Lot's of colleges now offer "Bachelors of Interdisciplinary Arts", and it sounds a little hokey, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense for someone who is grad school bound.

the reason it sounds hokey is because people with IDS degrees are usually the ones who either couldn't make up their minds or bounced out of their degree too late to get the pre-req's in another discipline. I disagree with your proposal though. If someone wants to focus on a specific field, they should be able to do so without having to go get a masters just to do it. As for employers, I suspect that a great many are more worried about can they start today and do the job, than a degree, so work experience still matters too unless it is some government bureaucratic policy at play.
 
https://trends.collegeboard.org/sit...mmunity-colleges-ed-enrollment-debt-brief.pdf

A few years ago the average cost was apparently around $2700/yr, but that doesn't include books and fees or living expenses. It's probably higher now, and certainly higher in some areas. Not everyone get's a pell grant either.

But you are right, it's not a huge sum. In my state, we have a state lottery scholarship, three different levels of awards, depending on ones hs grades and SAT score. The top level scholarship would cover the full price of community college, plus books and fees, plus a chunk of spending money, but even the lowest level pays for most of our local community college. Students in the bottom half of their hs class don't get crap, but maybe it should be that way.
I don't remember what I paid back in the 80's (actually, Uncle Sam paid for it), but now it's $84 a credit hour here in Phoenix.
 
Some may be less fortunate to be aware of their career potentials in time. It may take longer time within education with them.

That may be true and we are very bad at handling differences in achievement patterns. But putting people that do not belong there through college is a waste of money and scarce assets. It reduces the amount of help we can give others that would thrive.
 
That's not true. Everybody I know (on the left and right) thinks higher education costs are too damn high.
They might think it, but it's certainly never been a talking point of the left that we need to get a handle on college costs. They just try and figure out how to get more money to pay these crazy tuition costs. They never speak about them like they do with other areas that make money. And that's because it's a left dominated sector.
 
They might think it, but it's certainly never been a talking point of the left that we need to get a handle on college costs. They just try and figure out how to get more money to pay these crazy tuition costs. They never speak about them like they do with other areas that make money. And that's because it's a left dominated sector.

Addressing Rising College Prices and Increasing Transparency | Democrats -Committee on Education and the Workforce, U.S. House of Representatives
Higher Education | Democrats -Committee on Education and the Workforce, U.S. House of Representatives
Democratic Party on Education
Senate Democrats propose free college tuition funded by reducing corporate tax credits | MLive.com
Pres. Obama Reveals Progressive Plan To Lower The Cost Of College Tuition | Occupy Democrats
Bill sponsored by Wisconsin Democrats would ease student loan debt

I'd offer more, but I limited myself to a 2 minute search. Members of both parties are concerned with rising education costs.
 
https://trends.collegeboard.org/sit...mmunity-colleges-ed-enrollment-debt-brief.pdf

A few years ago the average cost was apparently around $2700/yr, but that doesn't include books and fees or living expenses. It's probably higher now, and certainly higher in some areas. Not everyone get's a pell grant either.

But you are right, it's not a huge sum. In my state, we have a state lottery scholarship, three different levels of awards, depending on ones hs grades and SAT score. The top level scholarship would cover the full price of community college, plus books and fees, plus a chunk of spending money, but even the lowest level pays for most of our local community college. Students in the bottom half of their hs class don't get crap, but maybe it should be that way.

Yeah, but if you are even remotely poor you can get massive subsidies already - right? I remember them saying at my community college to apply because if you're hair is blonde or red or brown you can probably get financial aid.

I'm not arguing, I think cheap education is awesome, but I don't see it changing anything:

1) It was already close to cheap/free for low-income people
2) This society requires that a certain number of people be low-income no matter what.

We can beat around the bush and pretend like we want to help everyone, but the fact is there has to be poor people for this society to function.
 
the reason it sounds hokey is because people with IDS degrees are usually the ones who either couldn't make up their minds or bounced out of their degree too late to get the pre-req's in another discipline.
Absolutely.

I disagree with your proposal though. If someone wants to focus on a specific field, they should be able to do so without having to go get a masters just to do it.

I never suggested that people shouldn't have a specific major, only that we should be more open to the merits and value for the IDS type degree as a foundation for further training and education.

As for employers, I suspect that a great many are more worried about can they start today and do the job, than a degree, so work experience still matters too unless it is some government bureaucratic policy at play.

Almost everyone that I have ever talked to, including people with technical degrees, have told me that they learned more on the job than in college. I don't know that anything can change that.
 
I don't remember what I paid back in the 80's (actually, Uncle Sam paid for it), but now it's $84 a credit hour here in Phoenix.

That's in-line with the average amount in the link I posted.
 
How about we reduce graduate loan interest rates and make efforts to cap tuition. I think people should have to invest in their education, if you hand it away for "free" it's undervalued. What they should do is ensure it's affordable for people and loans/tuition are low. Our education problem is that tuition has shot up far beyond the rate of inflation (and even economic growth) with student loan interest rates going up along with the answer to education being "throw more money into loans" with universities reacting as "there is more money available to us to charge in tuition."

Exactly.
 
Why? Is the creation of wealth zero sum?

No, but the "doing" class is the class that gets paid the least. And until those jobs are automated, they will be required to be filled. Someone has to clean up our ****. Someone has to collect trash. Someone has to be a cashier. Someone has to dig ditches. Someone has to mop the floors.

They are some of the most important jobs we have, but they are the easiest jobs so they can be filled by anyone and paid next to nothing.
 
If you go out and get a degree that you can't use to get a job, then yeah, you're worse off. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that having a bunch of debt from a useless degree isn't going to help you in your life. :lamo

And, on average, do you think that's the case? Do you think more people are helped by or hurt by their degrees?
 

Wow, some websites. They sure are pushing hard to cut college costs. A quick, 2 minute glance, shows absolutely nothing that is actually being done. Mostly ways to help pay for the high cost of education, or guides to show who charges what.

Show me something on the level of calling Apple in to scold them for paying their taxes or investigations into gas price increases.
 
The underemployment rate for college graduates and community college graduates is higher than 15%%.

Gallup Daily: U.S. Employment

Who needs a high school diploma to wait tables, flip burgers and clean bathrooms, when the college degree has become the new high school diploma?

That appears to be the general rates, without regard to educational attainment...

The unemployment rate amongst college grads is currently 2.9%; amongst those with some college/associates degree its 4.9%... each are well below the national average of 6%...

Table A-4. Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment
 
Breaking News fresh off the presses! Not really sure how all this will work. I guess when it fails in the Congress he'll blame the Republicans... :roll:

Obama: President Proposes 2 Free Years of Community College

Does anyone have any thoughts as to how this can actually work?

Because I'm not liking this idea:

Color me cynical.

I haven't seen anything from Obama that wasn't either 1) agenda driven or 2) politically ass-saving driven. I think this is number 2. :fart

It's not surprising to me that he'll propose spending more money that the government doesn't have to make himself look good.
 
Breaking News fresh off the presses! Not really sure how all this will work. I guess when it fails in the Congress he'll blame the Republicans... :roll:

Obama: President Proposes 2 Free Years of Community College

Does anyone have any thoughts as to how this can actually work?

Because I'm not liking this idea:

It sounds like extending the public school system two years, in return for some sort of work program. Volunteer work? Military?

If I were 16, I'd like it. But now, it just sounds expensive. I also don't trust another program that's supposed to pay for itself. Fool me once......
 
It sounds like extending the public school system two years, in return for some sort of work program. Volunteer work? Military?

If I were 16, I'd like it. But now, it just sounds expensive. I also don't trust another program that's supposed to pay for itself. Fool me once......

It's a scholarship mixed with work study.

Your comparison with the public school system isn't entirely off. It's a bit of a stretch, but policy wise over the next year the President is in fact reproducing nuggets of what we have seen in terms of accountability and scoring in public schools since the 1980s.
 
I suspect that the percent of our population who aren't really prepared for college is no different than it was fifty years ago, but we do have a larger percentage attending college, thus it's quite natural that more college students are unprepared. But maybe I'm wrong, it's just my opinion.

It's not because more students today are attending college, I'm sorry to say. Ask profs what they're seeing in their classrooms today. They are unfamiliar with ordinary words such as "argument" and "controversy." (I am not making this up.)

And it's not just the lack of critical thinking skills or the inability to comprehend what they read; too many students have zero intellectual curiosity. They aren't interested in actually learning, much less learning how to learn.

Add to that the fact that already at least a fifth of college students cannot read cursive, meaning that unless their work is graded online, they cannot even understand what their profs' comments are on their work.
 
It sounds like extending the public school system two years, in return for some sort of work program. Volunteer work? Military?

If I were 16, I'd like it. But now, it just sounds expensive. I also don't trust another program that's supposed to pay for itself. Fool me once......

Clinton initiated a similar volunteer service program that never really took off.

The volunteers (cynically dubbed "Clinton's Kids" by the locals) that I had contact with spent most of their service hours loitering around. In addition, as a certain number of this group were from uhmmm "at risk" backgrounds, they needed an awful lot of direct supervision, lest they get themselves into trouble of various sorts.
 
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