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Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

My issue is with the repeated analogies from posters equating this issue with driving accidents.

These analogies are false. The accidents in question are caused by an licensed driver. If cars are to be used as an analogy - then the analogy would be allowing a toddler to have access to the steering wheel. The false equivalencies are a problem.

My point was that folks get all upset with a single gun incident, but ignore large deaths in other situations.

The disparity is quite relevant, as anti-gun folks pounce all over one incident and cry and flail their arms to utilize the incident.

My point was also that lack of due diligence in any situation can have disasterous results due to a number of reasons, which is also correct.
 
I think we're done here.

They don't have kids but are on a route to and from high school. Anyone can see in. People, I am told, sometimes break into homes when people are not there and steal ****. There is a name for it, it is called burglary.

Kids, I have been told, can be irresponsible, as they do not see consequences.

Thanks for playing...we are done here

you think a burglar is too dumb to look for a spare key. hell nearly everyone keeps keys handing on a little hook board in the garage. tell me you know no one who does that! so reality, a safe is little security.....

that's such a silly thing to terminate a friendship over, I guarantee you that's not the only couple in Washington State who keeps guns in the sock drawer or the couch or on the vanity.

I can't even put a safe in my place, too little room. my gun when I'm gone is in a case hidden in the house. fortunately we've had no home break ins since 1999 in the little town in which I reside,,,
 
My point was that folks get all upset with a single gun incident, but ignore large deaths in other situations.

The disparity is quite relevant, as anti-gun folks pounce all over one incident and cry and flail their arms to utilize the incident.

My point was also that lack of due diligence in any situation can have disasterous results due to a number of reasons, which is also correct.

A few injuries/deaths from lawn darts, and they were banned.

Cars - which are useful for non-lethal purposes - require drivers' licenses, vision tests, insurance, and have safety features like safety belts and air bags, and are continually tested and rated for performance in crash situations. And manufacturers get sued if their cars have safety issues.

Food is continually tested; if a death or illness from salmonella is discovered, the source is tracked down and large amounts of that food are removed from grocery stores.

Just a couple examples, but how is that ignoring "large deaths in other situations"?
 
Same thing. I dont always carry, partly because I know i wont be able to be as vigilant as I need to be. But how many men do you think have walked out of bathroom stalls and left their guns behind? LOL Plenty, just ask on the gun forums.

it's matter of personal responsibility. When I shop carrying in my purse, it stays on my body.
Im glad you are as vigilant. I wish more people were as well. We know of at least one who wasnt.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

If it's legal in the state, they really cant do more than try to enforce a trespass law if they catch someone. They cant make it illegal to carry a loaded gun in their store (I dont think so anyway).
You may wish to reevaluate that. I think that if any business does not want firearms on their property, they have the right to that.

That would be like someone bringing a gun in to your house and you say no, but they claim the Second Amendment.

Now just walking down a public street (with a CC) or somewhere on a property that the gun owner owns is different.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

You may wish to reevaluate that. I think that if any business does not want firearms on their property, they have the right to that.

That would be like someone bringing a gun in to your house and you say no, but they claim the Second Amendment.

Now just walking down a public street (with a CC) or somewhere on a property that the gun owner owns is different.

I dont believe I'm incorrect. I didnt say they didnt have the right. They have the right to ask you to leave. It's not illegal to carry a gun into someone else's home here either. And if they find out and ask you to leave, you have to or you are trespassing. But the gun is not illegal in their home. And it's the same for anything. If someone asks you to leave their home or store, you have to (unless it's discriminatory).

It depends on state law but if it's not illegal in the state you cant just make your own laws on your property.
 
A few injuries/deaths from lawn darts, and they were banned.

Cars - which are useful for non-lethal purposes - require drivers' licenses, vision tests, insurance, and have safety features like safety belts and air bags, and are continually tested and rated for performance in crash situations. And manufacturers get sued if their cars have safety issues.

Food is continually tested; if a death or illness from salmonella is discovered, the source is tracked down and large amounts of that food are removed from grocery stores.

Just a couple examples, but how is that ignoring "large deaths in other situations"?

lawn darts are a great example of regulatory overreach, I have several sets I bought at flea markets, play it all the time. no one gets hurt because my friends and I know how to play it. btw lawn darts were not "banned" they cannot be sold as "toys" that's a big difference. you can possess lawn darts, you can purchase them, you can make them as "weapons" and sell them as sch, you merely cannot sell them commercially as a toy.

recalling food for salmonella is not even related, that's when the food maker screws up. if you get salmonella because you ate your meat raw no one is going to recall a thing. this is an example of the final user using a product in a manner inconsistent with its intended use. if the gun was defective they would be recalled as well.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

I dont believe I'm incorrect. I didnt say they didnt have the right. They have the right to ask you to leave. It's not illegal to carry a gun into someone else's home here either. And if they find out and ask you to leave, you have to or you are trespassing. But the gun is not illegal in their home. And it's the same for anything. If someone asks you to leave their home or store, you have to (unless it's discriminatory).

It depends on state law but if it's not illegal in the state you cant just make your own laws on your property.
I'm not talking about the gun being illegal to have; I'm talking about as business owner or private owner's rights on who comes on to their property with a gun. If you give that owner of that property trouble about leaving, it (the gun) might as well be just as bad as being illegal. ;) :lol:
 
I think we're done here.

They don't have kids but are on a route to and from high school. Anyone can see in. People, I am told, sometimes break into homes when people are not there and steal ****. There is a name for it, it is called burglary.

Kids, I have been told, can be irresponsible, as they do not see consequences.

Thanks for playing...we are done here


Apparently you cant be bothered to verbalize (or think it through) properly. If your kids break into my house, they know it's wrong. They are now committing a crime. I am not responsible for other people's crimes. They are alot more likely to steal my car...am I responsible for the crimes they commit with it or the people they hit and kill? (And I've had a truck stolen and used in robberies and funnily enough....I wasnt held responsible.)

I dont think many people leave firearms out in view but I know many that leave them accessible in the home. I leave mine out on a bedside table shelf....not visible from outside the home or even easily inside. Gun owners dont want their property stolen any more than anyone else so I doubt many leave them out all over. Again...please avoid the conversation if you cant invest in it.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

I'm not talking about the gun being illegal to have; I'm talking about as business owner or private owner's rights on who comes on to their property with a gun. If you give that owner of that property trouble about leaving, it (the gun) might as well be just as bad as being illegal. ;) :lol:

And they do have the right to ask you to leave. But it's not illegal to carry it into the store. it's illegal not to leave when asked.

(Again, this varies by state. Some states have specific ordinances that must be posted on the business that does make such carry illegal. But we were discussing it being illegal in states where it is legal to carry in general)
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

I dont believe I'm incorrect. I didnt say they didnt have the right. They have the right to ask you to leave. It's not illegal to carry a gun into someone else's home here either. And if they find out and ask you to leave, you have to or you are trespassing. But the gun is not illegal in their home. And it's the same for anything. If someone asks you to leave their home or store, you have to (unless it's discriminatory).

It depends on state law but if it's not illegal in the state you cant just make your own laws on your property.

well that's a tricky one, because in Washington trespass is when you illegally enter anothers property, or fail to leave when asked to do so. if someone puts up a sign, it's arguably trespassing because you know you'll be asked to leave if caught. the bigger issue, is most police agencies would rather not arrest people for simple trespass. Washington does not have a criminal trespass or trespass with a weapon charge. so any trespass by nature of carrying a gun is simple trespass. so usually if caught you can leave the premises (and therefore are no longer trespassing) or the police may be called and they'll make you sign a form saying if you're caught there again you'll be arrested.

now some states like Texas, have a law saying that if the business puts up a specific sign described in the law, then a CHL holder is committing trespass by going in anyway. in Texas the sign is required to be in 1inch block letters and have specific wording, if the sign is not exactly as described it carries no force of law.

my rule is this, if I walk up to a business and there's no sign immediately at eye level visible at the door I go in anyway.

most malls have a little sign where guns are prohibited in a big list of rules in little print, I don't seek those out. big sign eye level or I didn't see any sign at all. :)
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

well that's a tricky one, because in Washington trespass is when you illegally enter anothers property, or fail to leave when asked to do so. if someone puts up a sign, it's arguably trespassing because you know you'll be asked to leave if caught. the bigger issue, is most police agencies would rather not arrest people for simple trespass. Washington does not have a criminal trespass or trespass with a weapon charge. so any trespass by nature of carrying a gun is simple trespass. so usually if caught you can leave the premises (and therefore are no longer trespassing) or the police may be called and they'll make you sign a form saying if you're caught there again you'll be arrested.

now some states like Texas, have a law saying that if the business puts up a specific sign described in the law, then a CHL holder is committing trespass by going in anyway. in Texas the sign is required to be in 1inch block letters and have specific wording, if the sign is not exactly as described it carries no force of law.

my rule is this, if I walk up to a business and there's no sign immediately at eye level visible at the door I go in anyway.

most malls have a little sign where guns are prohibited in a big list of rules in little print, I don't seek those out. big sign eye level or I didn't see any sign at all. :)

Yes, and it's not against the law. That trespass law applies to many things, not just guns. Trespassing is against the law, not carrying the gun. Doesnt matter in this state if the business is posted or not. The signs carry no weight of law (here).

And all states are different, as stated. It's a crap shoot and BS IMO but it's the gun owner's responsibility to know and understand.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

And hell...they were at Wal-Mart. Lots of folks around to peruse her unattended purse.

I am at a loss for the folks dismissing this case as a simple accident.I have to wonder if they have ever been around toddlers.;)

I would think most gun owners would scream at the top of their lungs "we are NOT like that" "don't lump us in with people who as irresponsible as she was"

Perhaps because I have kids and have been around toddlers and have treated many a toddler that got injured. it happens in a blink of an eye.. and you don't often see it coming.

This lady didn't put a gun in the kids hand. She had it in a concealed carry purse.. which means that it was not open for the kid to even see it. He had to 1. open the concealed carry section..2 be able to get the gun out or in a position to shoot.. 3. Operate the trigger and have the gun in the direction of his mother..

that's a pretty extraordinary circumstance...

The problem here is that the assumption is that the kid got a gun.. and that equates to irresponsibility and stupidity. And I think that's a faulty assumption.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

And they do have the right to ask you to leave. But it's not illegal to carry it into the store. it's illegal not to leave when asked.

(Again, this varies by state. Some states have specific ordinances that must be posted on the business that does make such carry illegal. But we were discussing it being illegal in states where it is legal to carry in general)
Lursa: I'm not a lawyer but I would hate to walk in to a store or other business (manufacturing company; etc.) with a CC while seeing a conspicuous sign at the entrance explicitly stating "no firearms permitted on the premises" and then try to figure out if the firearm was illegal or my action of carrying it in to the premises was; that's one can of worms I wouldn't care to open. ;)
 
I never EVER let my toddler have access to the steering wheel EVER.

And if you intentionally allowed your toddler access to the steering wheel and there was an accident, you should be criminally charged - especially of there was bodily harm. And I would think CPS would be on speed dial.


sure you did.. you just never realized it. Really.. are you going to state that you never put your kid in a car seat.. until you were in the drivers seat yourself??

Or did you put your kid in the car seat, then walk to the drivers side and get in? If you did.. then you gave that toddler access to the steering wheel. Because all they had to do was get out of the car seat and get to the steering wheel before you got in.

By the way..I treated a toddler that was injured in this way.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa: I'm not a lawyer but I would hate to walk in to a store or other business (manufacturing company; etc.) with a CC while seeing a conspicuous sign at the entrance explicitly stating "no firearms permitted on the premises" and then try to figure out if the firearm was illegal or my action of carrying it in to the premises was; that's one can of worms I wouldn't care to open. ;)

as long as it stays concealed it's not an issue. I picked up a furniture order for a relative at the FedEx Warehouse in Fife, WA and they have no gun signs everywhere, one sign even says, "No firearms allowed on FedEx property, or vehicles on FedEx property" well whatever, I carried anyway picking up the order. no one was any the wiser.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa: I'm not a lawyer but I would hate to walk in to a store or other business (manufacturing company; etc.) with a CC while seeing a conspicuous sign at the entrance explicitly stating "no firearms permitted on the premises" and then try to figure out if the firearm was illegal or my action of carrying it in to the premises was; that's one can of worms I wouldn't care to open. ;)

You are expected to know the laws in your state. You will be held 100% for that.

EMNo and I have discussed how the law is applied in our state.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

as long as it stays concealed it's not an issue. I picked up a furniture order for a relative at the FedEx Warehouse in Fife, WA and they have no gun signs everywhere, one sign even says, "No firearms allowed on FedEx property, or vehicles on FedEx property" well whatever, I carried anyway picking up the order. no one was any the wiser.
A lot of people will also get away with driving home tonight while being intoxicated, but I would hate to be them if they're caught. ;)
 
1) When even a two year old can grab your purse, extract and fire your gun.

2) Just about anything else cannot blow a hole in your head from a distance when operated by a two year old.

Trying to make this into something which was not easily preventable is not going to work.

Some two year olds can operate "child proof caps" on medicine... some can manage to get onto counters..


Trying to make out that a child getting a weapon means that the owner was inherently irresponsible is not going to work.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

You are expected to know the laws in your state. You will be held 100% for that.

EMNo and I have discussed how the law is applied in our state.
True.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

A lot of people will also get away with driving home tonight while being intoxicated, but I would hate to be them if they're caught. ;)

what happens if I'm caught? I immediately leave, and if the FedEx people try to hold me there they're committing unlawful imprisonment which is a felony and I can use reasonable force to escape...
I know the law very well.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

A lot of people will also get away with driving home tonight while being intoxicated, but I would hate to be them if they're caught. ;)

True but in the issue being discussed, in our state, as long as we leave when asked, we are not acting illegally and wont be charged.
 
Some two year olds can operate "child proof caps" on medicine... some can manage to get onto counters..


Trying to make out that a child getting a weapon means that the owner was inherently irresponsible is not going to work.

Who, other than the (now dead) person, placed both the gun and the two year old in the same shopping basket?
 
Who, other than the (now dead) person, placed both the gun and the two year old in the same shopping basket?

That does not make her inherently irresponsible.

The gun was in a specially designed purse.... not open in the basket with the child.
 
That does not make her inherently irresponsible.

The gun was in a specially designed purse.... not open in the basket with the child.

Did you not just explain that "child proof" caps are often ineffective? Now you seem to assert that a mere zipper should have been reasonably expected to prevent access to the gun. That is, indeed, inherently irresponsible.
 
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