• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

Lursa said:
Ridiculous statement, poorly worded.

Having a gun in your car 'encourages the owner to leave the gun unattended.'

There are different methods of control with purses, different draws, different issues. But in the long run it is about level of responsibility which must always be high regarding firearms.
Click to expand...
Perhaps poorly worded but correct sentiment. How many people do you know with a purse that never set the purse down? A holster does not present the same problems.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:
I would think most gun owners would scream at the top of their lungs "we are NOT like that" "don't lump us in with people who as irresponsible as she was"
Click to expand...
Most of us ARE saying that. I think if there wasnt the usual suspects jumping to make an incident like this (or Sandy Hook) a springboard into promoting their cause, we could focus on the whole 'responsible gun owner' thing and there might be some very valuable lessons learned from all of this.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
There are plenty of charges that could cover this type of instance, reckless endangerment, endangering the welfare of a minor, neglect. Prosecutors however do not want to pursue such charges generally speaking, partially because of the belief, correct belief I might add, that there is very little the criminal justice system can do to make a more severe sanctions in the accident itself. In some cases prosecutors may also believe that juries will be unlikely to convect. A couple years ago in Marysville Washington, A police officer left his gun in his car with his son and daughter also in the car, The sun got a hold of the gun and shot the daughter by accident, I think he was four years old, The Snohomish County prosecutor brought the officer up on multiple charges and took it to trial, and the jury was about evenly split it was a hung jury.
Click to expand...

Actually, initially no charges were brought...even as that same week, a couple over in Yakima left a loaded gun under the seat and their 3 yr old killed himself with it. THey were charged immediately.

The public demanded that charges be brought...I emailed the prosecutor/Sno Co. myself and others put pressure on them to prosecute. The other couple was found guilty. The cop had a hung jury. I think he still is a cop too.
 
SMTA said:
So do 2 year old kids driving cars.

What's your point, other than to just bitch about it?

There is no 'we' here, as we are talking about the US, where you are not.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Where I live doesn't change the fact that I'm a U.S citizen with the same rights that other U.S. Citizens have, including the right to vote. :roll:
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:
And hell...they were at Wal-Mart. Lots of folks around to peruse her unattended purse.

I am at a loss for the folks dismissing this case as a simple accident.I have to wonder if they have ever been around toddlers.;)

I would think most gun owners would scream at the top of their lungs "we are NOT like that" "don't lump us in with people who as irresponsible as she was"
Click to expand...
we don't know everything here. was she an irresponsible woman who got her just deserts or a one time lapse in judgement that turned deadly?

no matter what moralistic proclamations you make here on the internet, I guarantee you've cut corners at some point, either a safety rule at work, or jumping down two steps of the stairs and not walking down one at a time. etc etc etc text while driving.

my grandfather was a hardass on rules all his life, after he retired and bought an RV he and grandma were going to see the country, while working on it he cut some corners, fell off hurt himself bad enough to need surgery, died from complications resulting from the surgery, for using a ladder that was 2 feet too short. your life is nothing but a ball in a roulette wheel, it's gotta stop somewhere, and one day it will and that will be it.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
well I dunno how familiar you are with Kitsap County Politics, I grew up in Kitsap Co. there was a whole backstory there the media didn't cover.

The gun in that case belonged to Douglas Bauer (whom I know personally, he drives the local city bus, I used to take the city bus to school). in 1994 or 95 I can't remember exactly, Douglas Bauer was driving home off of the SR-16 Freeway and a road rage driver followed him home to his house off of Mullenix Road, Bauer was assaulted in his driveway and pulled a gun from his car and shot his attacker.

The Sheriff's office arrested him, and I think the outgoing Prosecutor, C Danny Clem, didn't file charges, but the new Prosectuor, Russell Hauge, took it as a project, charged bauer with murder, and took it to trial, the jury found Bauer not guilty and ordered Hauge to repay Bauers legal blls.

well when the shooting happened in Bremerton, Russell Hauge was still serving as prosecutor, and he saw a chance to get revenge on Bauer. so he charged Bauer with assault and struck a plea deal with the kid in exchange for testimony. I went to the county courthouse and read the documents filed by the prosecutor, there's the first statement, called "information" where the prosecutor lays out the case, well attached to Information was the reports of two Bremerton Police Officers, now pay close attention, both officers stated that they didn't touch the gun, but that the BPD Captain, Wolfe is his name, took the gun out of the backpack and cleared it, but there's no report from Wolfe in the filings. and the newspaper doesn't know to ask the question, if the gun went off in the backpack from being dropped, was their anything wrong with it? did an HK armorer look at it? and when Wolfe "cleared it" was a live round expelled? because if the gun was cramped in a backpack, it would probably stovepipe and no new round would be in it.

see the newspaper dropped the ball on its reporting.
Click to expand...

Wow.

So then the media once again just perpetuated...knowingly or unknowingly...myths about how dangerous guns are. That they just go off when dropped. Thanks for the confirmation.
 
Lutherf said:
Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

This is just a horribly tragic story and the reason it's so tragic is because it was so preventable.

I'm the VP of the local chapter of an organization that provides professional education for those in my career field. Every month our board meets to discuss the topics that we'll be covering in our seminars and inevitably we have a lot of interest in new topics and exciting topics and flashy topics. Hey, those topics put asses in the seats and that's part of our job. But there is another part of our job and that's to make sure that those who are member of our organization or attend our events are performing at the highest professional standards they can and in order to achieve that standard we also need to constantly reinforce the basics.

I'm a tax and accounting guy. I can run through your financial data faster than you can run a comb through your hair and can not only spot an anomaly from a mile away but can usually tell you why it's out of whack half an hour before I hit my billing minimum. That being said, I'm also human and when I get too used to doing the same thing the same way all the time that's when I get dangerous. I suspect that's what happened in Hayden and why some 2 year old no longer has a mommy.

Folks, if you're going to carry a firearm then you need to pay attention to the basics. It's how you protect others and yourself from tragedy caused by complacency. I'd like to use this thread to clarify and discuss the basics of daily carry and I'd like to hear, primarily, from those who do carry every day. I'd also like those who don't carry to ask questions so that we can address your concerns.

For starters, when you carry you need to be in control of your weapon. That means you don't hand it to someone else or leave it on the toilet tank. You don't just dump it into your purse or your pocket. You keep that weapon in such a manner that you KNOW it's safe, secure and under your immediate control. The specifics of how you do that are often dependent on exactly what kind of weapon you're carrying but one of the basics is your holster. USE ONE!!

Simply stuffing a pistol in your waistband or purse might look cool in the movies but it's stupid. Even a decent level I holster will provide more security than your waistband. As a minimum it should be enough to cover the trigger guard so that nothing can get stuck in there accidentally. It should also be made for the firearm you're using it with so that everything fits and stays secure.

One other thing, once your weapon is in its holster and under your control DON'T **** WITH IT! There is no need to play pocket pool with your pistol. The pistol doesn't care and isn't going to feel neglected. Leave it alone unless you absolutely need to use it. If you have to take it off for some reason (entering an area where firearms are prohibited, for example) then take it off pistol and holster together. This is a good reason for those who carry IWB to use clip on holsters.

This is just one suggestion. Please feel free to add more.
Click to expand...



My father was a proud member of the NRA and a hell of a shot with a hand gun, he loved the Colt .45 and had several targets with the bull's eye missing in an otherwise pristine target.

He always said "guns don't kill people, stupidity kills people."

I have had to do a 180 on my gun control stand, bans and background checks don't work. The Great White North, Canada, has more lax gun control and more gun owners per capita than the US, so ownership and access cannot be the problem

I used to visit a close friend in Washington State; he and his wife both owned several hand guns. I stopped visiting after 911, I got very nervous about them leaving their hand guns all over the house when they were away. They simply could not comprehend the danger.

That's the stupidity that causes **** like this. Unfortunately man has never found a way to legislate stupidity.
 
year2late said:
Make your analogy more appropriate to the situation.

Would you EVER leave your toddler at or near the steering wheel?

If you say yes, I would say you didn't just make a mistake, you showed absolute disregard for the safety of others.

I have to wonder, if the toddler shot an innocent bystander - it is clear the toddler would not be charged - what charges would the mother face?
Click to expand...

I have left my toddler with access to the steering wheel.. and I bet you did too.. (if you had a toddler)... you ever put a toddler in a car seat. then went back to put packages into the car? All they have to do is get out of the car seat and now they are at the wheel. Every taken one kid out of the car seat and put them in a stroller while the other kid is still in the car? In a moment,.. they can be at the wheel.

Some kids are like Houdini's getting out of a car seat. And you know what... you don't know until.... the moment you look up and they are standing on the seat.. and hopefully have not done anything dangerous... or you're not driving!.
 
VanceMack said:
Perhaps poorly worded but correct sentiment. How many people do you know with a purse that never set the purse down? A holster does not present the same problems.
Click to expand...

But it's the commitment and responsibility of NOT doing that with a purse containing a firearm. The same as other commitments to owning and carrying a gun.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

EMNofSeattle said:
we don't know everything here. was she an irresponsible woman who got her just deserts or a one time lapse in judgement that turned deadly?

no matter what moralistic proclamations you make here on the internet, I guarantee you've cut corners at some point, either a safety rule at work, or jumping down two steps of the stairs and not walking down one at a time. etc etc etc text while driving.

my grandfather was a hardass on rules all his life, after he retired and bought an RV he and grandma were going to see the country, while working on it he cut some corners, fell off hurt himself bad enough to need surgery, died from complications resulting from the surgery, for using a ladder that was 2 feet too short. your life is nothing but a ball in a roulette wheel, it's gotta stop somewhere, and one day it will and that will be it.
Click to expand...

How sad. Very sorry.
 
SMTA said:
There were 35,000 automotive deaths last year, with 93% being attributed to driver error.

There is no great push for driver education in the US in spite of this.

There are alternative costs with every right or freedom that we have, and everything that we do.

Some folks educate themselves about risks, some do not, some do not care, and some just get lazy.
Click to expand...

SMTA said:
It was preventable.

It is completely clear to me.

Your response shows a distinct lack of understanding of the discussion here.
Click to expand...
My issue is with the repeated analogies from posters equating this issue with driving accidents.

These analogies are false. The accidents in question are caused by an licensed driver. If cars are to be used as an analogy - then the analogy would be allowing a toddler to have access to the steering wheel. The false equivalencies are a problem.
 
VanceMack said:
Leaving a loaded gun in a purse with a toddler in a shopping cart unattended is not an unforeseeable eventuality. It was careless.

I have several carry holsters. Yes...someone could wrestle with me and attempt to take control of my weapon. Thats not at all the same thing as if I set my weapon in the holster on a desk and walked away.
Click to expand...

Except the assumption was that it was "unattended".. whats unattended? If she has her her head turned and is an arms length away from the purse.. is that unattended?

And you know what.. you could be carrying your pistol on your hip, and slip and fall and have it not retain... and now its on the floor for someone to pick up. Guess that would be your fault right? Irresponsible you? Please.

Crap happens. Accidents do happen. You cannot prepare for every eventuality. It just that people have a much higher standard with firearms than they do with just about anything else. Which is the irony.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
year2late said:
And hell...they were at Wal-Mart. Lots of folks around to peruse her unattended purse.

I am at a loss for the folks dismissing this case as a simple accident.I have to wonder if they have ever been around toddlers.;)

I would think most gun owners would scream at the top of their lungs "we are NOT like that" "don't lump us in with people who as irresponsible as she was"
Click to expand...

we don't know everything here. was she an irresponsible woman who got her just deserts or a one time lapse in judgement that turned deadly?

no matter what moralistic proclamations you make here on the internet, I guarantee you've cut corners at some point, either a safety rule at work, or jumping down two steps of the stairs and not walking down one at a time. etc etc etc text while driving.

my grandfather was a hardass on rules all his life, after he retired and bought an RV he and grandma were going to see the country, while working on it he cut some corners, fell off hurt himself bad enough to need surgery, died from complications resulting from the surgery, for using a ladder that was 2 feet too short. your life is nothing but a ball in a roulette wheel, it's gotta stop somewhere, and one day it will and that will be it.
Click to expand...

Right. We don't have all the facts.

What has been presented is that the CCW purse was new to her. The most likely explanation is that her habits with her purse overrode her habits of daily carry. She probably never even thought about what she'd done until the kid had his or her hands on the pistol. I'm sure it was a lapse in judgement but I can sure see how it could happen.
 
Last edited:
Fearandloathing said:
My father was a proud member of the NRA and a hell of a shot with a hand gun, he loved the Colt .45 and had several targets with the bull's eye missing in an otherwise pristine target.

He always said "guns don't kill people, stupidity kills people."

I have had to do a 180 on my gun control stand, bans and background checks don't work. The Great White North, Canada, has more lax gun control and more gun owners per capita than the US, so ownership and access cannot be the problem

I used to visit a close friend in Washington State; he and his wife both owned several hand guns. I stopped visiting after 911, I got very nervous about them leaving their hand guns all over the house when they were away. They simply could not comprehend the danger.

That's the stupidity that causes **** like this. Unfortunately man has never found a way to legislate stupidity.
Click to expand...

What was the danger? The stupidity?
 
SMTA said:
Read it again!!

They are referring to carrying the gun in a vehicle.

If it is in plain view, you are OK - if it is concealed in the vehicle it must be broken down.

The only restriction for CCW is that you cannot be under the influence of alcohol.
Click to expand...

And you cannot carry on school grounds.. and you cannot carry if the property owner forbids it.. and you cannot carry on college campuses unless you have an enhanced carry.. which is different than a regular concealed carry.
 
Lursa said:
But it's the commitment and responsibility of NOT doing that with a purse containing a firearm. The same as other commitments to owning and carrying a gun.
Click to expand...
Its a wonderful idea. Now...how often do you know of women to have their purse on them at all times? In an office? At the store? I carry a firearm. Would you think it irresponsible of me to take it out of my holster and leave it in the cart while I am shopping? Of course you would...and should. Having a purse holster is a recipe for disaster.
Having her weapon out of her eyesight is out of 'control' Having it in a cart with toddlers? Come on...we have the results.
 
VanceMack said:
Its a wonderful idea. Now...how often do you know of women to have their purse on them at all times? In an office? At the store? I carry a firearm. Would you think it irresponsible of me to take it out of my holster and leave it in the cart while I am shopping? Of course you would...and should. Having a purse holster is a recipe for disaster.
Having her weapon out of her eyesight is out of 'control' Having it in a cart with toddlers? Come on...we have the results.
Click to expand...

but it's not the same, unless someone has xray vision they won't see a gun inside a purse.
 
jaeger19 said:
I have left my toddler with access to the steering wheel.. and I bet you did too.. (if you had a toddler)... you ever put a toddler in a car seat. then went back to put packages into the car? All they have to do is get out of the car seat and now they are at the wheel. Every taken one kid out of the car seat and put them in a stroller while the other kid is still in the car? In a moment,.. they can be at the wheel.

Some kids are like Houdini's getting out of a car seat. And you know what... you don't know until.... the moment you look up and they are standing on the seat.. and hopefully have not done anything dangerous... or you're not driving!.
Click to expand...

I never EVER let my toddler have access to the steering wheel EVER.

And if you intentionally allowed your toddler access to the steering wheel and there was an accident, you should be criminally charged - especially of there was bodily harm. And I would think CPS would be on speed dial.
 
jaeger19 said:
Except the assumption was that it was "unattended".. 1) whats unattended? If she has her her head turned and is an arms length away from the purse.. is that unattended?

And you know what.. you could be carrying your pistol on your hip, and slip and fall and have it not retain... and now its on the floor for someone to pick up. Guess that would be your fault right? Irresponsible you? Please.

Crap happens. Accidents do happen. You cannot prepare for every eventuality. It just that 2) people have a much higher standard with firearms than they do with just about anything else. Which is the irony.
Click to expand...

1) When even a two year old can grab your purse, extract and fire your gun.

2) Just about anything else cannot blow a hole in your head from a distance when operated by a two year old.

Trying to make this into something which was not easily preventable is not going to work.
 
VanceMack said:
Its a wonderful idea. Now...how often do you know of women to have their purse on them at all times? In an office? At the store? I carry a firearm. Would you think it irresponsible of me to take it out of my holster and leave it in the cart while I am shopping? Of course you would...and should. Having a purse holster is a recipe for disaster.
Having her weapon out of her eyesight is out of 'control' Having it in a cart with toddlers? Come on...we have the results.
Click to expand...

Same thing. I dont always carry, partly because I know i wont be able to be as vigilant as I need to be. But how many men do you think have walked out of bathroom stalls and left their guns behind? LOL Plenty, just ask on the gun forums.

it's matter of personal responsibility. When I shop carrying in my purse, it stays on my body.
 
Lutherf said:
Right. We don't have all the facts.

What has been presented is that the CCW purse was new to her. The most likely explanation is that her habits with her purse overrode her habits of daily carry. She probably never even thought about what she'd done until the kid had his or her hands on the pistol. I'm sure it was a lapse in judgement but I can sure see how it could happen.
Click to expand...
The purse may be new, but if she left it unattended , the newness of the purse means nothing.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Seriously?

You can't see a danger in leaving hand guns out for all to see in a vacant house?

Let's start with some teen agers on their home from school........
Click to expand...

Well it depends on the home. You didnt say they had kids.

What's wrong with it if no one else is supposed to have access to the home? I dont mean piles of guns laying around, I'm referring to a more common scenario like a few where they can be reached in an emergency.
 
Lursa said:
Well it depends on the home. You didnt say they had kids.

What's wrong with it if no one else is supposed to have access to the home? I dont mean piles of guns laying around, I'm referring to a more common scenario like a few where they can be reached in an emergency.
Click to expand...

I think we're done here.

They don't have kids but are on a route to and from high school. Anyone can see in. People, I am told, sometimes break into homes when people are not there and steal ****. There is a name for it, it is called burglary.

Kids, I have been told, can be irresponsible, as they do not see consequences.

Thanks for playing...we are done here
 
Lursa said:
Well it depends on the home. You didnt say they had kids.

What's wrong with it if no one else is supposed to have access to the home? I dont mean piles of guns laying around, I'm referring to a more common scenario like a few where they can be reached in an emergency.
Click to expand...

that really means nothing, when I was a teen I knew exactly where the gun safe keys were, and I was allowed the combination to another safe when I was older, like 16.

when I was 17 and home alone or parents were gone and I was watching my brothers I would load my fathers pistol and keep it next to my bed....

ironically, knowing what I know now, I would probably never allow kids of mine to do that, but on the other hand, lets not pretend teenagers are dumb and can't find where you hide keys or the instruction manual to your safe with the combo on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom