Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

Jerry said:

This woman had taken a class, which also required range time, so your point is moot.

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It appears to me that she didn't learn what she really needed to know from that class.

If we had a time machine we could run her through that class again.

shrubnose said:

It appears to me that she didn't learn what she really needed to know from that class.

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These classes can't teach mindfulness. I've never seen data demonstrating that CCW training has prevented negligence or deaths. I would love a good link if you have one handy.

shrubnose said:

If we had a time machine we could run her through that class again.

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If she took the class 10 times it wouldn't make a difference. Mindfulness is a habit. You can't learn a habit in a class.

Now of course if we just instituted mandatory conscription into the military upon turning 18, then this sort of incident would be rare indeed.

Jerry said:

She wasn't a responsible gun owner, and now she's dead as a result. IMO that's the end of the story, nothing else to see or do about it.

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Where does it say that you must not keep a gun in your purse when you have small children around? I think she thought she was being responsible and protecting her family. That is the problem. How many others are doing the same thing? She took a class to get her CC permit. Did they tell her how dangerous a gun can be or just how to shoot it? I suspect that they don't want to scare off customers.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

WCH said:

I was going to make that point point but, I wasn't sure about the later generation Glocks. [My Wife bought hers many years ago]

Our

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You make choices when you purchase a firearm and you can choose one with a safety. I did for a couple of reasons, one of which is I do purse carry.

I thought that I'd read that most toddlers couldnt chamber a round tho....just not keeping one chambered would have saved her (if it was a semi-auto).

jaeger19 said:

Sure.. she could have decided to put a lock on the purse, and then.. when she was mugged in the parking lot.. she is raped and killed in front of her 2 year old because she could get the gun out in time.

Pointing out.. there are tradeoffs in carrying a weapon for self defense. It has to be accessible, it has to be able to be fired without tremendous effort.. like fumbling with a difficult safety, or racking a round into the chamber. Sometimes fractions of seconds count... and it has to be secure from being taken from you by someone else either a perp or a toddler.

If everytime something happened with a child.. it was automatically the parents fault for being irresponsible... every parent would be considered irresponsible.

.

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There are purses with built in holsters. Regardless of how it was secured in her purse, part of being a responsible gun owner is positive control of your weapon at all times. The purse (with a gun in it) should not have been accessible to the child. Period.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Deuce said:

What? I don't think you understand what the "chamber" of a gun is. Not having a round in the chamber doesn't mean you don't have any bullets.

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Not my point at all.

You obviously are clueless about handguns, readiness, and common sense.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

ReverendHellh0und said:

I guess that would depend on where in your purse you keep it and the age of the toddler in your basket.


I kid


but yeah, If I am carrying it's condition 1.

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LOL. Ive trained myself with the Isreali draw so I can chamber it and draw at the same time. Nevertheless I actually prefer an extra second to chamber the round so I have time to truly decide whether to fire or not since Im no cop and may be liable for making a wrong split second decision. Anyway if someone was to threaten me I wouldnt be fast drawing like a Western gunslinger, I would get into cover first.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

AJiveMan said:

Golly SMTA, think what might have happened if there were a purse snatcher in the store, holy jeez.

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First, you dont let that happen, you control the purse at all times, you dont leave it in a cart. And second if they take your purse, you run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.

I do not accept any responsibility at all if someone commits a crime (steals my property) and takes my gun from home, car, or person. I'm not responsible for any other crimes they commit, why should I be responsible for that?

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:

You make choices when you purchase a firearm and you can choose one with a safety. I did for a couple of reasons, one of which is I do purse carry.

I thought that I'd read that most toddlers couldnt chamber a round tho....just not keeping one chambered would have saved her (if it was a semi-auto).

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That depends upon the caliber and strength of the recoil spring.

A toddler would be more capable of flipping off a safety as opposed to chambering a round.

My son could rack the slide on a 5" .45 1911 when he was 8 years old, and a 9mm XD when he was 5.

Lack of access is the only safe way with kids and guns.

I would politely suggest a manner other than off-body (purse) carry.

Please be very careful.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

AJiveMan said:

Well, it was basically not following firearm safety rules,

I was taught not to have a round in the chamber in semi auto pistols and rifles, or on any pistol or rifle for that matter, and to leave one cylinder empty on a revolver where the hammer is in the rest position to prevent accidental discharge,

might be a good reason for people who want to own a firearm to attend classes to learn more than they think they might know.

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Self defense classes do not teach that, at least that I know of. You are taught to carry the gun as it was designed, with a round in the chamber.

However if you have kids or other extenuating circumstances, I can see taking the precaution of not chambering. To me, yes, they seem somewhat like 'a rock' that way but that's an exaggeration IMO. I think the same about trigger locks, etc but people with kids have to take alot of extra care with their guns. The guns are still useful, just less immediately so. You have to balance your life and circumstances to see which risks are higher...immediacy or kid access.

year2late said:

Of course she was irresponsible. She had a loaded weapon in her purse and left her purse where her son could get to it.

In what way shape or form was she a responsible gun owner?

Was it tragic for her and all involved, hell yes.

But if we act like she was not irresponsible - it is open season on all gun owners.

The fact that she was irresponsible with her gun around her children is just FITH.

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With all due respect, you drive your car every day and, as a general rule, you never have any problems but one moment in one day you turn your attention to something else and smack into a person who ran a red light. How irresponsible are you?

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:

First, you dont let that happen, you control the purse at all times, you dont leave it in a cart. And second if they take your purse, you run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.

I do not accept any responsibility at all if someone commits a crime (steals my property) and takes my gun from home, car, or person. I'm not responsible for any other crimes they commit, why should I be responsible for that?

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How did you get that from this?

AJiveMan said:

Golly SMTA, think what might have happened if there were a purse snatcher in the store, holy jeez.

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Jump to conclusions much?

iguanaman said:

Where does it say that you must not keep a gun in your purse when you have small children around?

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You're never allowed to make your firearm accessible to any 'prohibited person', which includes minor children. There are exceptions for training, sport and hunting, non of which occurred here.

iguanaman said:

I think she thought she was being responsible and protecting her family. That is the problem. How many others are doing the same thing? She took a class to get her CC permit. Did they tell her how dangerous a gun can be or just how to shoot it? I suspect that they don't want to scare off customers.

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I suspect you've never actually taken a CCW class, then. What you're describing is exactly what the class is filled with. But a class can't force you to at all times be mindful 24/7. The class can't alter behavior.

The class is worth the fee, it would be worth your time even if you never desire to carry a gun.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

SMTA said:

No location can be considered safe these days if one is unprepared - there are criminals and fools everywhere.

Being prepared 100% of the time is intelligent - being a blind fool will get you killed every time.

I am always prepared and safe.

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"If I thought I needed a gun...I wouldnt go there!"

:2wave: Hi SMTA

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:

First, you dont let that happen, you control the purse at all times, you dont leave it in a cart. And second if they take your purse, you run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.

I do not accept any responsibility at all if someone commits a crime (steals my property) and takes my gun from home, car, or person. I'm not responsible for any other crimes they commit, why should I be responsible for that?

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They make ballistic nylon handgun fanny packs that can be carried on a strong belt and have painfully strong attachments and shoulder straps that could be used for over-the-shoulder carry.

How Do I Hide This Thing? | Cornered Cat

paddymcdougall said:

Good writeup. She was experienced with guns; she wasn't dumb; the gun was in a compartment specifically for concealed weapons, so for those who think she should have had it in a holster - obviously the expectation was that women would carry guns in their purses.

I'm in favor of more gun control laws and more gun safety measures, as many of you know. But about the only thing though that could have helped in this case was trigger locks, I'm thinking. Or one of those id things that only lets the owner shoot it. Those would have probably stopped this. Or if WalMart banned people bringing guns in.

As LutherF says "It's simply a stark reminder of why you need to keep your head in the game the whole time you're playing.".

That's true for guns, for cars, and for other potentially deadly activities.

People with kids may want to rethink and recheck their gun security. Or not own guns; that's the best way to avoid a gun accident. Trigger locks may be a good idea when kids are around (if they work - I freely admit I don't keep up with the latest technology).

In the meantime, my condolences to the family. Yes, this accident was avoidable - but aren't most accidents avoidable? that's why they are accidents.

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Trigger locks and biometric safeties are EXACTLY the kind of thing that make people believe they are more safe and, as such, no longer need to exercise common sense.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:

"If I thought I needed a gun...I wouldnt go there!"

:2wave: Hi SMTA

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Sage advice, but evil morons show up unannounced everywhere!

Hello!!

VanceMack said:

There are purses with built in holsters. Regardless of how it was secured in her purse, part of being a responsible gun owner is positive control of your weapon at all times. The purse (with a gun in it) should not have been accessible to the child. Period.

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I would be more than happy to throw anti-gun a bone here and we legally ban purse holsters. They never were a good idea.

Lutherf said:

With all due respect, you drive your car every day and, as a general rule, you never have any problems but one moment in one day you turn your attention to something else and smack into a person who ran a red light. How irresponsible are you?

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Or run a red light. I drive truck for a living, you'd be amazed just how many people you can see texting while driving when you can look down at them

Jerry said:

She wasn't a responsible gun owner, and now she's dead as a result. IMO that's the end of the story, nothing else to see or do about it.

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I wholeheartedly agree.

Except that perhaps others can learn from her mistakes.

Jerry said:

I would be more than happy to through anti-gun a bone here and we legally ban purse holsters. They never were a good idea.

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Well they're not a good idea from your viewpoint as a man. As a man I can throw on a full size pistol then put a sweater that's two sizes too big over that no one cares. Women have much different fashions that make hiding guns harder.

iguanaman said:

Then you would agree that those people who are not willing or don't have the time or responsibility to "train and practice" etc. should not own a gun and should be told so. The idea that a gun = protection is what I object to. It is a double edged sword. There are at least as many reasons NOT to own a gun as there are to own one.

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Actually if organizations like the NRA, which actively work to encourage responsible gun ownership and to provide sound training opportunities, weren't vilified we'd be heading in the right direction. That is where the key lies.

Yes, I am more comfortable shooting next to a properly trained kid under 16 at the gun range than I am being in public with a gang banger with a pistol shoved in his pants. In fact, I have been seeing more and more kids shooting with the parents, often with their moms, at the range than I have ever seen. That's a great thing. I love the sport. I believe if we had more of that then we'd have a lot less of the other. It seems anymore that if you own more than 3 or 4 guns and have more than 500 assorted rounds of ammunition you are gun nut who has "a weapons and ammo cache".

In general terms society at large does NOT encourage anyone to learn about guns and to become competent in their use. Society remains at best quiet or tacitly disapproves. Meanwhile the street encourages the illegal possession and use of guns. It's all backasswards.

As to guns = protection: When severe bodily harm is imminent and seconds matter and escape is not an option you'd prefer not to have a gun? Of course you'd prefer to have a gun. I'm certain you'd also prefer, especially at that moment, to have confidence in your gun, your ammunition and your training. Here is the reality of it - we don't get to pick the scenario or the timing. It happens when it happens. You can be prepared or you can wish you had prepared.

With the proper societal attitude maybe the lady in the OP would have had better training and more respect for the gun she was carrying.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lovebug said:

This is a very sad and unfortunate situation. I am all for 2nd Amendment rights, but more so for all the responsibilities that come with those rights, not to mention a common sense approach when it comes to carrying a deadly weapon.
Kids and guns....hello. Most people can't control their kids in the best of circumstances, so what makes them think that a loaded weapon should be anywhere near them?
I also don't understand what world we live in that makes us want to carry a weapon at all times, willing to shoot at anyone we perceive as threatening. I don't even know whom to fear more, a potential perpetrator or some gun lover with a nervous trigger finger. We can imagine being a hero, but are we?

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Who imagines being a hero? My firearm is to protect ME. Only. And I have no desire in drawing it at perceived threats.

However you must be living on another planet if you think you are safe in the US...in your home or out. The news shows a very different picture. You dont necessarily need a gun to protect yourself but certainly those that choose that have the right to do so and not be crippled by your biases.

Please feel free to post some news items where legally carrying people shot and killed innocent bystanders defending themselves or others. I'm not aware of a single instance.

So....unless you can provide proof....some news links...your biases are unfounded.

Lutherf said:

With all due respect, you drive your car every day and, as a general rule, you never have any problems but one moment in one day you turn your attention to something else and smack into a person who ran a red light. How irresponsible are you?

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Make your analogy more appropriate to the situation.

Would you EVER leave your toddler at or near the steering wheel?

If you say yes, I would say you didn't just make a mistake, you showed absolute disregard for the safety of others.

I have to wonder, if the toddler shot an innocent bystander - it is clear the toddler would not be charged - what charges would the mother face?

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

AGENT J said:

IMO horrible accident, horrible mom

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Not just moms, not just regular people. Had a cop here do something similar. Left loaded gun in glove box, a 7 yr old and his sister in the van, and went into store. 7 yr old gets dad's gun and accidentally kills sister.

Stupid and careless is stupid and careless...crosses all boundaries.