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Walmart customers “unruly” after store closes, police called

whysoserious said:
Slave labor does not have to be forced labor. Sweat shops are a form of slave labor.
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And they choose to work there because they have no saleable skills that others would pay more for. Whose fault is that again?
 
whysoserious said:
I guess where I disagree is that just because the market puts a value on something, that doesn't necessarily make that value correct.
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How do you objectively determine "correct" values? Please explain it to us.
 
JasperL said:
Social security can be "fixed" relatively easy for the indefinite future. Most of the current problem is the stagnation/decline in wages for the bottom half or so, but even with that, we don't have a big SS problem other than the political will to make a couple of unpleasant choices - slightly higher taxes and/or slightly lower benefits.



Where did you get the idea half the country pays no net taxes? Even those who don't pay federal INCOME taxes spend almost all their money on sales taxable items, and so pay sales taxes (in my area of 9.25%), which fund schools, and they pay real estate taxes either directly or as part of their rent which directly fund schools, and pay a portion of the income taxes of the businesses they purchase from, etc. And of course most pay about 15% in payroll taxes, gas taxes, other excise taxes (phone etc.) and more.
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Yes, yes...We can print more and more money...At some point, I can just raid the Monopoly game for funds too....

As for schools, most of the funds come from property taxes locally, but this meme about those paying sales taxes, gas, and others, is just a feel good load of crap to make non producers feel better.
 
Cephus said:
And they choose to work there because they have no saleable skills that others would pay more for. Whose fault is that again?
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I find it hard to believe that a large portion of the population has no skills.

Cephus said:
How do you objectively determine "correct" values? Please explain it to us.
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I don't have the answers, I just don't believe the free market is infallible and I think history is my side with that.
 
Cephus said:
And they choose to work there because they have no saleable skills that others would pay more for. Whose fault is that again?
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The person born in poverty with poor life chances, education and family support of course!
 
Manc Skipper said:
The person born in poverty with poor life chances, education and family support of course!
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Yet people rise from that all the time, people improve their situation all the time, it's a choice. That people make bad choices is no one's fault but their own.
 
Cephus said:
Yet people rise from that all the time, people improve their situation all the time, it's a choice. That people make bad choices is no one's fault but their own.
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Not really. The stats show that class is fairly inelastic. People born poor tend to stay poor and people born rich tend to stay rich - especially in the United States.
 
whysoserious said:
I find it hard to believe that a large portion of the population has no skills.



I don't have the answers, I just don't believe the free market is infallible and I think history is my side with that.
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history also shows you that Central government trying to provide for everyone fails....See Roman Empire.
 
whysoserious said:
Not really. The stats show that class is fairly inelastic. People born poor tend to stay poor and people born rich tend to stay rich - especially in the United States.
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Equality in outcome is a pipe dream.
 
j-mac said:
Equality in outcome is a pipe dream.
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I was going to say something similar until I saw yours. Equality of outcome is irrational and wholly unrealistic. Equality of opportunity, where everyone has an opportunity to make good life choices and better their lives, is the only thing that makes sense. Sure, you won't be able to go from poverty to a billionaire in one go, that's stupid to expect, but to make your life better and to make your children's lives even better than that is a wholly realistic and achievable goal. Unfortunately, you get the whiny liberals who think that because they can't be a billionaire, why even bother trying at all, give me a government check. :roll:
 
whysoserious said:
I find it hard to believe that a large portion of the population has no skills.



I don't have the answers, I just don't believe the free market is infallible and I think history is my side with that.
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What people commonly argue as an alternative is to have a living wage. That however doesn't really determine value, but instead determines what people need to meet their needs and the needs of their dependents. It's just a cold economic calculation, not an actual look at what people are willing to buy and sell something for.
 
j-mac said:
Yes, yes...We can print more and more money...At some point, I can just raid the Monopoly game for funds too....
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I didn't expect a serious response and didn't get one.

As for schools, most of the funds come from property taxes locally, but this meme about those paying sales taxes, gas, and others, is just a feel good load of crap to make non producers feel better.
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Right, property taxes which are paid by poor people either directly or as part of their rent. In my area, local sales taxes fund schools, and those are around 3% per dollar of taxable purchases, which are most purchases for poor people. So it's not a load of crap - it's pointing out the FACT that poor people pay a significant share of their income in taxes. And pretending they don't is just a load of crap by people who want to show their contempt for working poor....
 
Cephus said:
Yet people rise from that all the time, people improve their situation all the time, it's a choice. That people make bad choices is no one's fault but their own.
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The exceptions might do so, but expecting everyone to bootstrap themselves to riches when they have neither boots nor straps is cruel far beyond being unrealistic.
 
Cephus said:
I was going to say something similar until I saw yours. Equality of outcome is irrational and wholly unrealistic. Equality of opportunity, where everyone has an opportunity to make good life choices and better their lives, is the only thing that makes sense. Sure, you won't be able to go from poverty to a billionaire in one go, that's stupid to expect, but to make your life better and to make your children's lives even better than that is a wholly realistic and achievable goal. Unfortunately, you get the whiny liberals who think that because they can't be a billionaire, why even bother trying at all, give me a government check. :roll:
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Yeah, you know I grew up what many would call a somewhat privileged childhood...Father that owned his own business, went to private schools, yet still managed to throw it all down the tubes, and take the hardest possible path....My Dad was very old fashioned, and as a result, when I made the choices I made, in his eyes, I was a man, so I was on my own...Still, even though I had some, hell, a lot of really tough times, I managed to catch on, and make a respectful living, own a home, and send my kids to college...It can be done....I learned when I stopped thinking that the world owed me something, I did better.
 
whysoserious said:
I find it hard to believe that a large portion of the population has no skills.



I don't have the answers, I just don't believe the free market is infallible and I think history is my side with that.
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not hard to believe at all when you consider that 3 million kids a year are dropping out of high school

now, out of those...some will earn a skill in the trades

or become a decent salesperson

but the majority will never go to another school....never apprentice to a trade.....never increase their marketable skills in todays world

sad.....but true
 
Manc Skipper said:
The exceptions might do so, but expecting everyone to bootstrap themselves to riches when they have neither boots nor straps is cruel far beyond being unrealistic.
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Those that do though, should damned well use them instead of waiting for the rest of us to do it for them.
 
Henrin said:
What people commonly argue as an alternative is to have a living wage. That however doesn't really determine value, but instead determines what people need to meet their needs and the needs of their dependents. It's just a cold economic calculation, not an actual look at what people are willing to buy and sell something for.
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Agreed. And I don't know if that's a viable option or not. I'm mostly here to just constantly poke, prod, and bitch about the current system.
 
JasperL said:
I didn't expect a serious response and didn't get one.
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maybe you shouldn't use such boilerplate talking point blather, and you might get some better replies...

Right, property taxes which are paid by poor people either directly or as part of their rent. In my area, local sales taxes fund schools, and those are around 3% per dollar of taxable purchases, which are most purchases for poor people. So it's not a load of crap - it's pointing out the FACT that poor people pay a significant share of their income in taxes. And pretending they don't is just a load of crap by people who want to show their contempt for working poor....
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Contempt? not at all...Hell, I used to be the epitome of 'working poor'.... Hell, at one point the Church gave us Thanksgiving dinner, and that was all we had in the house...So don't tell me...Those "poor people" you speak of also have things like EIC's on their taxes at the end of the year, that all but ensure that not only do they get whatever they paid in income taxes back, but an additional couple thousand as the credit...So, in terms of net taxes paid, they don't, they in fact get money back, or more welfare if you will.
 
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