• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
The purpose of civil disobedience is to inconvenience people to both bring awareness to a dire issue and pressure the government to act on that issue.
Click to expand...
If the goal is to bring awareness to the issue, i say it's a major failure. All they've done is make themselves look like criminals and irritants.


Many of the people protesting and many people who support the protesters are "hard-working individuals" as well in spite of people's attempts to smear them as "jobless", etc..
Click to expand...
If many of these protesters are "hard working", why are some of them asking for a free pass on their grades while they go out to protest? That sounds like laziness to me.


However, if you have such a hostile attitude towards them, then you're probably part of the problem that I see so your opinion on the matter isn't valuable to me
Click to expand...
I'm part of the problem?
-I'm not a cop
-I don't shoot Black people

You want to know what the real problem is? The Black community and the lack of education, lack of parental guidance and lack of respect for the law. If Sharpie and his butt buddy Jesse want to improve the lives of Blacks, they should be addressing those points, not blaming everything on Cops and Whites.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

X Factor said:
Ok, well I'm not seeing any extreme attitude in whysoserious. The truth is that it isn't always the best idea to talk to the police. He's also saying not to be a dick, don't resist, if the arrest is bad, deal with it in civil court. That's actually all pretty reasonable.
Click to expand...

I'm seeing a very extreme attitude and a spirit of absolute uncooperative ness.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
Yeah, I posted it later in the thread after I found it.


The purpose of civil disobedience is to inconvenience people to both bring awareness to a dire issue and pressure the government to act on that issue. Many of the people protesting and many people who support the protesters are "hard-working individuals" as well in spite of people's attempts to smear them as "jobless", etc.. If I thought they were "idiots", I wouldn't support them. However, if you have such a hostile attitude towards them, then you're probably part of the problem that I see so your opinion on the matter isn't valuable to me.
Click to expand...

So far, they've screwed the pooch on that one. The only things that have been accomplished are three dead people, who didn't need to die, property destroyed that didn't need to be destroyed and even more negative stereotypes. And for what? A false narrative.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:
No, it's not.

What's the first Miranda right? LOL
Click to expand...

"first Miranda right?" LOL Nothing stops an officer from asking you a question. You refuse, prepare to be treated like a criminal.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Roadvirus said:
If the goal is to bring awareness to the issue, i say it's a major failure.
Click to expand...
The fact that we are talking about it right now means that their goal of bringing awareness is a success. The fact that the protests have been covered by international media further confirms that they have been successful as raising awareness.

All they've done is make themselves look like criminals and irritants.
Click to expand...
I have no doubt that that's how they look to some. That's not how they look to me though. Unless you can convince me that I should swap my perspective for yours, your perspective doesn't influence mine.

If many of these protesters are "hard working", why are some of them asking for a free pass on their grades while they go out to protest? That sounds like laziness to me.
Click to expand...
What about all of the ones who didn't ask for a "free pass" on their grades? What about all of the ministers, rabbis and other religious leaders who have held protests after their services? What about all of the lawyers and med students and other workers (including congressional staffers) who have held protests? What about the athletes who have held demonstrates before or during their games while they are working? I guess those don't count. I guess you just ignore those people because it doesn't fit in with your narrative.

I'm part of the problem?
-I'm not a cop
-I don't shoot Black people
Click to expand...
Cops who shoot people are not the only problem.

You want to know what the real problem is? The Black community and the lack of education, lack of parental guidance and lack of respect for the law. If Sharpie and his butt buddy Jesse want to improve the lives of Blacks, they should be addressing those points, not blaming everything on Cops and Whites.
Click to expand...
The "Black community" certain has intra-community issues to address. It doesn't make racists like you and the trigger-happy cops who shoot them any less of a problem, though.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
The fact that we are talking about it right now means that their goal of bringing awareness is a success. The fact that the protests have been covered by international media further confirms that they have been successful as raising awareness.


I have no doubt that that's how they look to some. That's not how they look to me though. Unless you can convince me that I should swap my perspective for yours, your perspective doesn't influence mine.

What about all of the ones who didn't ask for a "free pass" on their grades? What about all of the ministers, rabbis and other religious leaders who have held protests after their services? What about all of the lawyers and med students and other workers (including congressional staffers) who have held protests? What about the athletes who have held demonstrates before or during their games while they are working? I guess those don't count. I guess you just ignore those people because it doesn't fit in with your narrative.


Cops who shoot people are not the only problem.


The "Black community" certain has intra-community issues to address. It doesn't make racists like you and the trigger-happy cops who shoot them any less of a problem, though.
Click to expand...

They created awareness for all the wrong reasons.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
The "Black community" certain has intra-community issues to address. It doesn't make racists like you and the trigger-happy cops who shoot them any less of a problem, though.
Click to expand...

The point is that they are focusing on the wrong issues. In 3 out 4 cases, since and including the Michael Brown case, those people wouldn't have even had any interaction with the police had they chosen to do more law-abiding and productive things than engaging in criminal activity. THAT is the issue.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

RDS said:
Get the body camera implemented. That will shed more light.
Click to expand...

No it won't, considering the police dept. will control the recordings.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Napoleon said:
The point is that they are focusing on the wrong issues. In 3 out 4 cases, since and including the Michael Brown case, those people wouldn't have even had any interaction with the police had they chosen to do more law-abiding and productive things than engaging in criminal activity. THAT is the issue.
Click to expand...
I think that the Black people protesting are more than capable of determining which issues are "right" for them to focus on. I don't think you or anyone else has the authority to tell them that they are focusing on the "wrong" thing. It's not your decision to make.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
I think that the Black people protesting are more than capable of determining which issues are "right" for them to focus on. I don't think you or anyone else has the authority to tell them that they are focusing on the "wrong" thing. It's not your decision to make.
Click to expand...

I do think I have the "authority" to tell them they are focusing on the wrong thing and they are clearly not as capable as you seem to think they are. There is a prevalent lack of critical thinking and reasoning skills in the way they portray these events and if they continue to behave in the way highlighted by the article in the OP then they should be dealt with accordingly.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
I think that the Black people protesting are more than capable of determining which issues are "right" for them to focus on. I don't think you or anyone else has the authority to tell them that they are focusing on the "wrong" thing. It's not your decision to make.
Click to expand...

Its looks to me that there's a serious atmosphere of poor judgement among the protestors.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ecofarm said:
It's not an excuse for anything. It would be ludicrous to protest blacks or Christians for the acts of individuals because they're not responsible for those individuals. The police department is responsible for its individuals.

It's stupid to confuse race and religion with occupation.
Click to expand...
Its far more stupid to make ignorant and bigoted comments. Protesting 'the cops' is an ignorant and bigoted position for anyone to take. Supporting that position is equally ignorant and bigoted.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
Here's a link to the video : CCTV footage appears to show Antonio Martin raising gun to police officer - video | US news | The Guardian

He definitely puts his hand out.
Click to expand...

I agree. Almost certainly, the video will be closely analyzed and blown up in resolution, with an effort to determine whether or not the individual had, in fact, raised a gun. Things seem or appear to suggest such a conclusion based on the early information, but an investigation will be needed and it will be undertaken. Nothing has been verified at this point in time.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:
I support protests against the excessive use of force against anyone. Don't you?
Click to expand...

What makes you think that excessive force was used in this case? It is not wise to finish second in a gun fight.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Glen Contrarian said:
What I see with Garner's death was overzealousness on the part of the cops. There was no need to let it get that far, and especially no need to use a chokehold. He didn't die of a heart attack - he died because he was choked to death. Yes, if he was able to say "I can't breathe", then he was able to breathe at that time...but after that, he was choked to death by a cop who honestly thought that he (the cop) was doing the right thing. The cop wasn't trying to kill him - of course not! But there was absolutely no need to use a chokehold to subdue a guy for a non-violent penny-ante crime.

It's the same thing in many, perhaps most police brutality cases - the majority of the time, the police are trying to do what they honestly believe to be the right thing, but take it too far - and this isn't a problem with individual cops, but with the leadership of the police force as a whole. When the atmosphere - the "corporate intertia", to put it another way - allows or encourages cops to take things too far, to not think of the use of force as something that should be the LAST resort, then this is what happens.
Click to expand...
No...he did not. Thats a foolish position to even take. He didnt die because he was choked to death. Point of fact he NEVER stopped breathing and in fact DID die of a coronary attack. He died because he decided it was a good idea to resist arrest and his actions resulted in being taken to the ground. He died because he was morbidly obese and couldnt handle the exertion.

He wasnt just able to say "I cant breathe". He said it 11 times. You know what you HAVE to be able to do to say "I cant breathe"? Have the capacity to breathe.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

donsutherland1 said:
I agree. Almost certainly, the video will be closely analyzed and blown up in resolution, with an effort to determine whether or not the individual had, in fact, raised a gun. Things seem or appear to suggest such a conclusion based on the early information, but an investigation will be needed and it will be undertaken. Nothing has been verified at this point in time.
Click to expand...

What's really going to happen, is the hands up-a-tards are going to latch on to the mother's version of events, in which she claims her son was running away.
 
MMC said:
Another shooting of a young black man in Missouri, that had pulled a gun on the Officer. Couple miles away from Ferguson. The Officer did what he had to.....and deadly force was used. Immediately a band of protestors gather on the scene. Right away taunting the police and blaming them for killing another black man. It didn't matter the young black man pulled a gun. What say ye?







BERKELEY, Missouri (AP) — A suburban St. Louis police officer shot and killed a man who pointed a gun at him at a gas station late Tuesday, police said.

A crowd of about 100 people were gathered early Wednesday at the scene in Berkeley, Missouri, a few miles from Ferguson, where a white police officer fatally shot black 18-year-old Michael Brown in August. The protesters gathered early Wednesday milled around the gas pumps at the station, some taunting and yelling at police officers.

Some had strands of yellow police-line tape draped around their neck, with others using it as a headband. Authorities from multiple agencies, some in riot gear, stood among the protesters.....snip~

Police: Officer in Missouri shot, killed man who pulled gun
Click to expand...

Facts dont matter to these thugs and protestors. Forensic evidence, witness testimony, video-those used to mean something-but not if it goes against the false narrative that White cops roam around shooting black people at will. :doh

This video stops just before the moment of the shooting.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:
I don't think you could find one person who studies law that thinks "just answer the officers" questions is a good idea.
Click to expand...

You have to admit that there is a difference in answering questions when you are the focus and when it has nothing to do with you.

If a police officer asks you "How are you doing?" it is probably safe to answer him.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

matchlight said:
It sounds like you were the subject of what's technically called an investigatory detention, or less formally a "Terry stop." These are "seizures" under the Fourth Amendment, which the Supreme Court has applied to the states. What local police do, for constitutional purposes, is action by the state where they are working. These stops raise the issue, then, whether they are "unreasonable" seizures and therefore unconstitutional. Police need only a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity to make them, which is a less demanding standard than the "probable cause" they need to arrest a person. The Supreme Court has held that whether the suspicion is reasonable is based on "the totality of the circumstances."

These stops have to be pretty brief, or they turn into arrests, for which--at least when first made--there was not the required probable cause. I say when first made, because during the Terry stop, the detained person may act in ways that increase the original reasonable suspicion to probable cause. Acting belligerent about being briefly questioned or asked for ID, for example, is a great way to turn an investigatory detention into an arrest. So you were smart to realize the cop had no way of knowing when he arrived what you might be up to, and not to get defensive. The neighbor's call gave him the reasonable suspicion he needed, and the fact you were on your own property didn't make any difference.

I noticed a couple other things about the facts you related. An investigatory detention is on shaky legal ground if it goes on longer than a few minutes. The twenty minutes you describe is way too long, and anyone in that situation would have a right to excuse himself and end the conversation. If a reasonable person would not feel free to leave the situation, it means he is under arrest. Also, the cop's questions about your dogs' names and the year of your car suggest that even if he did go on too long, his training was otherwise pretty good. Those are friendly, conversational questions that tend not to provoke a hostile response. They're also just the kind of questions that someone who belonged there could answer with no hesitation, but that are likely to make someone who didn't pause, even if only for a moment, to come up with an answer.
Click to expand...

My question with this whole thing is why the neighbor didn't know it was him at his own house, unshaven or not.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

americanwoman said:
It was kind of hard for me to see, it was pretty grainy but it does appear to be the teen pointing a gun.
Click to expand...

It was grainy and difficult, but yes it looked like that. Unfortunately, the clip ended immediately. Should have had a longer clip to show what happened in the immediate aftermath.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

GreatNews2night said:
I was hoping someone here at DP would have some fresh info or photos to post. Apparently not. What I've been seeing in other boards is this:
Click to expand...
I gave the most recent information available right before going to bed. I wake up and you're saying that wasn't good enough for you. Sorry for sleeping, damn. I don't see you linking to new information, just bitching that others haven't.

GreatNews2night said:
7. Apparently the only gun that fired shots was the officer's.
Click to expand...
So it's not enough that teens aren't allowed to possess handguns in the first place, and let's forget that this handgun had it's serial number filed off, which is another felony. Apparently now you're saying the cop wasn't justified in shooting because he didn't wait for the teen to fire first.

GreatNews2night said:
Maybe it was temporarily removed for expert examination and investigation then put back.....
Click to expand...
That's actually illegal. The picture has to be taken before the item is moved, otherwise any evidence relying on where the gun was found gets tossed out.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

GreatNews2night said:
Doesn't anybody have anything to say about post #66? I was hoping for more updated information that would support hypothesis A or B. I was hoping that here on DP people would have some sort of better info; in the Ukraine crisis threads often people from that area had compelling info/videos/pictures showing stuff that the regular media had yet not reported. This thread is discussing the general issues - race, police brutality, guns, etc. - but I haven't seen posts that have info or evidence that sheds more light on what happened.

Should I try to post another thread to ask these questions? I thought this thread was the right place to raise these points but apparently nobody is interested in debating the basic facts in this incident but are rather going into other more general directions.
Click to expand...
Or sleeping. Some of us are night crawlers, you know.

My advice to you: Whine less, debate more. Thanks.
 
GreatNews2night said:
True, and true. The main issue in this case, though, is whether or not the teen pointed a gun at the cop. I don't think this point has been clearly established yet, given some strange circumstances I detailed earlier. If the the teen did point a gun at the officer, case closed. If he didn't, then all hell breaks loose, as we'd be facing a major cover-up happening in the middle of an already explosive situation.

One thing that would help, I think, is that police leaders re-train officers to have body cameras and dashboard cameras on at all times, and that this footage be immediately and transparently available in any doubtful case. Trust and accountability must be restored from all sides, otherwise we are all as a society headed into a lot of trouble (which has started already, like the crazy guy who shot and killed two officers in New York City).

Me, while I wouldn't endorse for a second any case of unjustified police brutality, I'd also want my home and family and city to be protected by police.

The police serve society in a very essential job (and a difficult, honorable, and dangerous and even heroic one); on the other hand, we do need our police officers to be highly trained, responsible (as in, using the right level of force required by the circumstances), and accountable if they stray (with non-malicious human error being taken into account as attenuating circumstance, but malicious and deliberate misuse of force or cover-ups being severely punished). We need our citizens to be equally law-abiding, respectful of officers when the police are doing their job appropriately, and accountable for things like violent protests and looting. We need our criminals to be caught, prosecuted, and killed when justified (as in self-defense when they are trying to kill an officer). In summary, we need a state of law where all parties behave within it.

Unfortunately as a society we seem to be currently far from the ideal I've just stated.
Click to expand...
Why should footage be immediately available to the public? If you shoot someone you have 72 hours to make a report. That's time to get a lawyer, review all the footage for yourself and prepare your story. The public has no need to do this, we're just bystanders, our ass isn't on the line.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Roadvirus said:
You support a bunch of idiots clogging up traffic and causing disturbances in shopping malls, which interferes with the lives of hard-working individuals?
Click to expand...

Seriously, if a traffic jam and shopping mall disturbances interfere with your life all that much and you don't have bigger problems, count yourself one of the lucky ones.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom