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Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Shoplifting? Is that worth a gun fight with the PoPo?

Again, it depends on the punishment. If they plan to lock me way for years it just might be. Think about it like this. If I live in a state where the punishment for my crime is life in prison what exactly do I have to lose by shooting it out with the cops? If anything I save myself years of torment by dying right then and there.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I was unclear. I was saying that after the protesters arrived, the police made a statement about the guy pulling a gun.


All you did was quote the police statement again. Like I said, if the police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot them, but I'm not inclined to just accept what they way. Reporting their account of events as fact is silly to me.

What evidence do you have that they are lying?

To automatically distrust an account is paranoia and I doubt that is helpful here and now.

Perhaps people need to stay calm and quit automatically accusing everyone else.

No ****ing wonder the streets are burning. Nobody trusts anyone anymore.

What a ****ed up way to live.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Agree entirely with you. This is one of those type of things I say routinely, not even related to this topic. It's evidence on this forum.

When you use rhetoric or arguments that are ridiculous/hyperbolic/outright false in nature it immedietely damages your credability and the credability of the argument you're trying to make. Even if that argument was ultimately a solid and legitimate one, your attempt to actually win people over to your argument or have it taken seriously is amazingly damaged when you are building said argument on a foundation of problematic statements.

My only point was that I see a very stark difference between pointing out instances of police "brutality" when they happen (or even trying to point out instances where it may be the case for closer look)...and pointing out instances of "brutality" by people of a particular race or religion.

In the first case, you're pointing out civil servents...people employed on the tax payer dime, that are there to do a job because we as citizens have tacitly agreed to the social contract that makes their job even exist, and who are part of the governmental structure that is supposed to be serving us. In the second case you're pointing out private citizens.

My point is simply that I see more legitimacy in protesting, or continually "pointing out", the former more so than the later.

At no point am I suggesting nor implying that the WAY some people protest or point out those things are right, nor that the notion of over exaggeration or outright lying regarding those protests is okay.
Bigotry is applied to races and groups. There are literally millions of cops. I would dare say most cops are opposed to brutality. Bias and bigotry towards any group is inappropriate. And lets be honest...of all the examples getting national attention right now, are these really cases people want to pin their hats on? Garner was not beaten. He was taken down in a move some describe as a chokehold but his own actions prove he was capable of breathing. He didnt die of brutality...he died of a lifetime of cheeseburgers and no exercise. And dood was a 31 time loser to boot. Brown...he went from being a cute baby faced gentle victim to being a violent thug that only moments before the encounter with the cop had robbed a store and thrown the clerk around like a rag doll. There is at least evidence and several witnesses stating Brown was the aggressor. This most recent case involves a man reported to have had pulled a gun on a cop.

None of this is to suggest that there are NOT real live actual cases involving police brutality that should be identified and addressed.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Bigotry is applied to races and groups. There are literally millions of cops. I would dare say most cops are opposed to brutality. Bias and bigotry towards any group is inappropriate. And lets be honest...of all the examples getting national attention right now, are these really cases people want to pin their hats on? Garner was not beaten. He was taken down in a move some describe as a chokehold but his own actions prove he was capable of breathing. He didnt die of brutality...he died of a lifetime of cheeseburgers and no exercise. And dood was a 31 time loser to boot. Brown...he went from being a cute baby faced gentle victim to being a violent thug that only moments before the encounter with the cop had robbed a store and thrown the clerk around like a rag doll. There is at least evidence and several witnesses stating Brown was the aggressor. This most recent case involves a man reported to have had pulled a gun on a cop.

None of this is to suggest that there are NOT real live actual cases involving police brutality that should be identified and addressed.

I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.
Every death involving a second individual is a 'homicide'. A homicide ruling by a coroner is not a criminal judgement, nor does it imply guilt, fault, blame. They have 5 categories to choose from. The coroners ruling of homicide means less than nothing. If you and I are wrestling and you have a massive heart attack and die because you are morbidly obese and shouldnt have been wrestling in the first place it is still ruled a homicide. As for Brown...do you acknowledge the forensic evidence and witness accounts offer that Brown was ore at least could have been the aggressor? If so...you are back to a real poor case to take a stand on.

So lets work on actual cases and punish people actually guilty rather than condemning an entire profession because of the perceived acts of a minority.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Sure. Be all reasoned and rational and intelligent. Way to throw THAT in my face...

;)
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.

I don't think you know what "homicide" means on an autopsy report. All murders are homicides but not all homicides are murder.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Now I don't understand. You seem to now contradict your earlier statement that having these videos would fix some problems but start some others.

A video would shed more light on the incident, that's a fact

Whether or not said new information would be good or bad, cause issues, or be ignored by people who have an issue with the cops is an entirely different discussion.

Whether or not something will happen is a different question than whether or not it would be good if something happened.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Sure. Be all reasoned and rational and intelligent. Way to throw THAT in my face...

;)

I know what you mean. He's a dirty fighter being all reasonable and rational and ****.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

This past summer I was out watering the last remaining live vegitation in my side yard. It was the weekend so I was dressed in my rattiest shorts and t-shirt, hadn't shaved and as I was just outside my house, didn't think to grab any sort of ID. Despite the water hose in my hand, one of my neighbors called the police to report my suspicious activity. Officer shows up and starts questioning me. He tries to make it seem like harmless small talk, asking me the names of my dogs, what year my car sitting in the drive was, things like that but I totally got that he was testing me, seeing if my answers made sense. I guess I could have clammed up and been incensed that he we questioning me of all people (why my innocence should have been obvious to him) and tell him last I checked this was still America and demand a lawyer, but all that would have done is drug out what was a twenty minute encounter. I just can't be too upset with someone who was actually potentially protecting my house. I can't even be too pissed at whichever neighbor reported me (even though I do think it a little silly).

It sounds like you were the subject of what's technically called an investigatory detention, or less formally a "Terry stop." These are "seizures" under the Fourth Amendment, which the Supreme Court has applied to the states. What local police do, for constitutional purposes, is action by the state where they are working. These stops raise the issue, then, whether they are "unreasonable" seizures and therefore unconstitutional. Police need only a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity to make them, which is a less demanding standard than the "probable cause" they need to arrest a person. The Supreme Court has held that whether the suspicion is reasonable is based on "the totality of the circumstances."

These stops have to be pretty brief, or they turn into arrests, for which--at least when first made--there was not the required probable cause. I say when first made, because during the Terry stop, the detained person may act in ways that increase the original reasonable suspicion to probable cause. Acting belligerent about being briefly questioned or asked for ID, for example, is a great way to turn an investigatory detention into an arrest. So you were smart to realize the cop had no way of knowing when he arrived what you might be up to, and not to get defensive. The neighbor's call gave him the reasonable suspicion he needed, and the fact you were on your own property didn't make any difference.

I noticed a couple other things about the facts you related. An investigatory detention is on shaky legal ground if it goes on longer than a few minutes. The twenty minutes you describe is way too long, and anyone in that situation would have a right to excuse himself and end the conversation. If a reasonable person would not feel free to leave the situation, it means he is under arrest. Also, the cop's questions about your dogs' names and the year of your car suggest that even if he did go on too long, his training was otherwise pretty good. Those are friendly, conversational questions that tend not to provoke a hostile response. They're also just the kind of questions that someone who belonged there could answer with no hesitation, but that are likely to make someone who didn't pause, even if only for a moment, to come up with an answer.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

What evidence do you have that they are lying?

What evidence do you have that they are lying?

To automatically distrust an account is paranoia and I doubt that is helpful here and now.

Perhaps people need to stay calm and quit automatically accusing everyone else.

No ****ing wonder the streets are burning. Nobody trusts anyone anymore.

What a ****ed up way to live.
You're the only one out of the two of us who brought up lying. I just said that I'm not going to accept what they said without question. If you consider caution to be paranoia, then I guess I'll have to live with that analysis. As far as remaining calm, I agree. As the saying goes, "cooler heads prevail". I only wish you would take that advice yourself given your melodramatic statements that "the streets are burning" and "nobody trusts anyone anymore".
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Every death involving a second individual is a 'homicide'. A homicide ruling by a coroner is not a criminal judgement, nor does it imply guilt, fault, blame. They have 5 categories to choose from. The coroners ruling of homicide means less than nothing. If you and I are wrestling and you have a massive heart attack and die because you are morbidly obese and shouldnt have been wrestling in the first place it is still ruled a homicide. As for Brown...do you acknowledge the forensic evidence and witness accounts offer that Brown was ore at least could have been the aggressor? If so...you are back to a real poor case to take a stand on.

So lets work on actual cases and punish people actually guilty rather than condemning an entire profession because of the perceived acts of a minority.

What I see with Garner's death was overzealousness on the part of the cops. There was no need to let it get that far, and especially no need to use a chokehold. He didn't die of a heart attack - he died because he was choked to death. Yes, if he was able to say "I can't breathe", then he was able to breathe at that time...but after that, he was choked to death by a cop who honestly thought that he (the cop) was doing the right thing. The cop wasn't trying to kill him - of course not! But there was absolutely no need to use a chokehold to subdue a guy for a non-violent penny-ante crime.

It's the same thing in many, perhaps most police brutality cases - the majority of the time, the police are trying to do what they honestly believe to be the right thing, but take it too far - and this isn't a problem with individual cops, but with the leadership of the police force as a whole. When the atmosphere - the "corporate intertia", to put it another way - allows or encourages cops to take things too far, to not think of the use of force as something that should be the LAST resort, then this is what happens.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

What I see with Garner's death was overzealousness on the part of the cops. There was no need to let it get that far, and especially no need to use a chokehold. He didn't die of a heart attack - he died because he was choked to death. Yes, if he was able to say "I can't breathe", then he was able to breathe at that time...but after that, he was choked to death by a cop who honestly thought that he (the cop) was doing the right thing. The cop wasn't trying to kill him - of course not! But there was absolutely no need to use a chokehold to subdue a guy for a non-violent penny-ante crime.

It's the same thing in many, perhaps most police brutality cases - the majority of the time, the police are trying to do what they honestly believe to be the right thing, but take it too far - and this isn't a problem with individual cops, but with the leadership of the police force as a whole. When the atmosphere - the "corporate intertia", to put it another way - allows or encourages cops to take things too far, to not think of the use of force as something that should be the LAST resort, then this is what happens.

You must have seen a different video than me. The cop applied the choke hold for less than 2 seconds and then when on the ground kept pushing his head into the ground, which I found excessive. He defiantly was never choked to death in the video I saw.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

You must have seen a different video than me. The cop applied the choke hold for less than 2 seconds and then when on the ground kept pushing his head into the ground, which I found excessive. He defiantly was never choked to death in the video I saw.

Okay, maybe I'm wrong on that - but the cops were still overzealous, which I believe is a leadership problem.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Yes, asking questions and expecting answers is excessive force.
You're the only person who said that it was.

I don't care if you ask either of those questions, but if you just clam up and are not going to answer then he has not choice but to escalate the situation and take you in. His job is to figure out what is going on, why he was called here or what you are up to, he gets paid for that.
Actually, the police do have a choice. Police officers do not have to, nor do they always, "take a person in" who refuses to answer questions. If they did that, then the jails would be even more over capacity than they are now with every witness and criminal who refused to talk to police.

I really liked the classy part about stay out of our country at the end also.
He can come to my country, just not permanently.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Which Judge investigated the Ferguson decision? Get real. Judges don't hear cases that are never brought. Baaaaaah.

Not every case involves a judge directly. Do you think it should be that way? How ludicrous.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

That's the weakest excuse for practiced bigotry I've ever seen.

It's not an excuse for anything. It would be ludicrous to protest blacks or Christians for the acts of individuals because they're not responsible for those individuals. The police department is responsible for its individuals.

It's stupid to confuse race and religion with occupation.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

1. The police said he pulled a gun. If they police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot him. I'm not inclined to just accept what the police say just because they said it.

I think there was a survelliance video of the incident.

3. I support these protests wholeheartedly and while I can understand why some people would "taunt" officers (built up anger and frustration), it bothers me. I don't think that that is the way to express one's frustration.
You support a bunch of idiots clogging up traffic and causing disturbances in shopping malls, which interferes with the lives of hard-working individuals?
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

According to your link the protesters threw fireworks at the police. That's what we see in the video.

Tossing fireworks at a gas station? Yep...good idea!
You can tell that the kind of protesters there aren't exactly Einsteins.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Not every case involves a judge directly. Do you think it should be that way? How ludicrous.

You are the one who said every police shooting involves judicial review, and when pointed out it does not, then you try to pretend I am the one who made your ludicrous assertion. I must scurry on along now because my Uncle Thomas tells me I am not to talk back to the white folk or they won't let me shine their shoes. He'll skin me alive if he catches me truth tellin.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Looks like the Guy wearing the Adidas is yelling.....I can't breathe, after they put the handcuffs on him.

43a858f26ba22132690f6a706700861b.jpg

It looks like he has to pee.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

It looks like he has to pee.
I love the thug in the peacekeepers hoodie. Orwellian doublethink lol
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I think there was a survelliance video of the incident.
Yeah, I posted it later in the thread after I found it.

You support a bunch of idiots clogging up traffic and causing disturbances in shopping malls, which interferes with the lives of hard-working individuals?
The purpose of civil disobedience is to inconvenience people to both bring awareness to a dire issue and pressure the government to act on that issue. Many of the people protesting and many people who support the protesters are "hard-working individuals" as well in spite of people's attempts to smear them as "jobless", etc.. If I thought they were "idiots", I wouldn't support them. However, if you have such a hostile attitude towards them, then you're probably part of the problem that I see so your opinion on the matter isn't valuable to me.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

You are the one who said every police shooting involves judicial review, and when pointed out it does not, then you try to pretend I am the one who made your ludicrous assertion. I must scurry on along now because my Uncle Thomas tells me I am not to talk back to the white folk or they won't let me shine their shoes. He'll skin me alive if he catches me truth tellin.

I said it was reviewed by those things. All police action is looked at, some goes to internal investigation, some to trial. All of it is looked at by the public, at least the person/people involved. The review process for police is extensive. To pretend no one polices the police is nutbag BS. The judicial system takes a look at all police action, one way or another.
 
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