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Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

MildSteel

MildSteel

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It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

Ukraine took a historic step toward NATO on Tuesday in a parliamentary vote that stoked Russia's anger ahead of talks on ending the ex-Soviet state's separatist war.

Lawmakers in the government-controlled chamber overwhelmingly adopted a bill dropping Ukraine's non-aligned status -- a classification assumed by states that refuse to join military alliances and thus play no part in wars.

President Petro Poroshenko had vowed to put Ukraine under Western military protection after winning an election called in the wake of the February ouster in Kiev of a Moscow-backed president.

"European and Euro-Atlantic integrations -- that is Ukraine's single course," Poroshenko tweeted moments after the 303-8 vote.

Ukraine assumed de facto neutrality under strong Russian pressure in 2010. It had sought NATO membership in the early post-Soviet era but -- its once-mighty army in ruins and riven by corruption -- was never viewed as a serious candidate.

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Victoria Nuland was Dick Cheney's foreign policy advisor. Amazing! Here she is with her old boss

nuland-cheney.jpg
 
How dare Ukraine deicide it's own foreign policy that should be left up to Putin!
 
MildSteel said:
It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
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Russia has been fairly level-headed about all this. Ukraine has nothing to
offer NATO. No money. Dilapidated military. Gov't in with only a 29%
approval from registered voters. I think if Ukraine angled for peace instead
of conflict, it would be much better for Ukrainians. They have chosen an
option that will endanger their pipeline transit status, because they have
siphoned off illegally in the past, and since they're broke, you can expect
more of the same. Russia will be less tolerant since Kiev has assumed a
anti-Russia posture, rightfully so, in my opinion. Gov't by Big Banking and
not gov't by the people.
 
MildSteel said:
It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
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Russia isn't doing so well in the economic war over Ukraine. I suspect they will find a way to get out of there while claiming victory pretty soon.
 
Quag said:
How dare Ukraine deicide it's own foreign policy that should be left up to Putin!
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Ukraine should decide it's own foreign policy, so should Russia and so should the US. However, all of us will have to live with the consequences of those decisions, good or bad. Obama, Hillary, Nuland and that neocon crowd at the Heritage Foundation have decided to take the US down this very dangerous path. We will see where it leads.
 
DaveFagan said:
Russia has been fairly level-headed about all this. Ukraine has nothing to
offer NATO. No money. Dilapidated military. Gov't in with only a 29%
approval from registered voters. I think if Ukraine angled for peace instead
of conflict, it would be much better for Ukrainians. They have chosen an
option that will endanger their pipeline transit status, because they have
siphoned off illegally in the past, and since they're broke, you can expect
more of the same. Russia will be less tolerant since Kiev has assumed a
anti-Russia posture, rightfully so, in my opinion. Gov't by Big Banking and
not gov't by the people.
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At the end of the day this is about destroying Russia's attempts at forming it's Eurasian Union.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Russia isn't doing so well in the economic war over Ukraine. I suspect they will find a way to get out of there while claiming victory pretty soon.
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No they are not doing well at all. But they are likely going to have to suffer through the low oil prices for a while as well as the sanctions. The thing is this, there are countries such as China and India that have a very strong interest in preserving Russia as a counterweight to US power. It is for this reason that Russia will survive this, although in life support, and will rebound when oil prices resume their upward trajectory.
 
MildSteel said:
No they are not doing well at all. But they are likely going to have to suffer through the low oil prices for a while as well as the sanctions. The thing is this, there are countries such as China and India that have a very strong interest in preserving Russia as a counterweight to US power. It is for this reason that Russia will survive this, although in life support, and will rebound when oil prices resume their upward trajectory.
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If China and India want Russia to remain strong, then they have an interest in convincing Putin to get out of the Ukraine, too.
 
Dittohead not! said:
If China and India want Russia to remain strong, then they have an interest in convincing Putin to get out of the Ukraine, too.
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They don't want them to be strong, in the the sense of what Putin was trying to accomplish with his Eurasian union because quite frankly both China and India have problems with Russia as well. They just want them on life support, enough to keep them around as a counterweight to US power. That way, they can leverage Russia's weak position to their advantage. Take for example the recent 400 billion dollar energy deal Russia signed recently with China. It is my understanding that China got a very very good deal on the energy, because Russia, quite frankly, badly needs the money.
 
MildSteel said:
They don't want them to be strong, in the the sense of what Putin was trying to accomplish with his Eurasian union because quite frankly both China and India have problems with Russia as well. They just want them on life support, enough to keep them around as a counterweight to US power. That way, they can leverage Russia's weak position to their advantage. Take for example the recent 400 billion dollar energy deal Russia signed recently with China. It is my understanding that China got a very very good deal on the energy, because Russia, quite frankly, badly needs the money.
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So, indirectly the sanctions are helping China?
 
Putin's a short little man beast anyways.
 
Dittohead not! said:
So, indirectly the sanctions are helping China?
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The sanctions are backfiring against the USA. The sanctions are bringing
Russia, India, China, and the BRICS Nations more closely allied. I have
noted in another post that China and India see the USA using its' reserve
currency status as a weapon against Russia and must realize that if the
USA will do that against Russia, they might be next. That forces them to
counter the possibility at the first opportunity and this is the first opportunity
or just to perform a buttress against USA hegemony. The USA is trying to
conquer the World economically with Central Banking alliances and pressures.
Nations that value independence will reject this attempt. I believe that is
what we are witnessing and China's statement that they will support Russia
is just the first acknowledgement.
 
DaveFagan said:
The sanctions are backfiring against the USA. The sanctions are bringing
Russia, India, China, and the BRICS Nations more closely allied. I have
noted in another post that China and India see the USA using its' reserve
currency status as a weapon against Russia and must realize that if the
USA will do that against Russia, they might be next. That forces them to
counter the possibility at the first opportunity and this is the first opportunity
or just to perform a buttress against USA hegemony. The USA is trying to
conquer the World economically with Central Banking alliances and pressures.
Nations that value independence will reject this attempt. I believe that is
what we are witnessing and China's statement that they will support Russia
is just the first acknowledgement.
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Bull****.
 
The vote by the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) is a formality to end the country's official nonaligned status. Ukraine would still have to formally apply to join NATO and meet all of the alliance requirements.

And there's the rub. One of the myriad NATO membership requirements is that the petitioning state not be involved in a territorial dispute. Ukraine still claims sovereignty over Crimea which Russia invaded and illegally annexed in March. There is also the conflict in eastern Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk regions with pro-Russian rebels overtly supported by Russian troops and tanks.

Russia has engineered similar "frozen conflicts" in Georgia (Abkazia/South Ossetia) and Moldova (Transnistria). Putin is very aware that instigating and maintaining such conflicts is tantamount to having a veto over NATO membership.
 
As Dave Fagan said, Ukraine offers NATO little...except a more antagonized Russia.

If that is what NATO wants, they should gobble up Ukraine. If it isn't, they shouldn't.

If I was NATO, I would tell Ukraine, 'thanks, we will take it under advisement' and then delay a decision indefinitely...leaving the door open but not letting them come in.


But as a world citizen, I think Ukraine joining NATO means nothing but trouble for Europe overall.
 
Simpleχity;1064124038 said:
Russia hardly needs a NATO excuse. Ukraine was officially a neutral non-aligned nation when Russia invaded in February 2014.

Russia's invasion also violated the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which it signed in 1994.
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Russia did not 'invade' the Donetsk region.

The Donetsk region held a referendum which was overwhelmingly for leaving the Ukraine and joining Russia. Then Ukraine invaded the region and THEN Russia sent in forces to defend the region that overwhelmingly voted to join Russia.

As far as I know, Russia has not attacked any area outside of the regions that voted to join Russia.


I am not saying Russia acted with the purest of intentions...clearly it did not.

But if America can bomb countries at will then I don't see why Russia cannot defend a region that voted to join up with it.

This whole embargo nonsense for Russia's actions in the Donetsk region and the Crimea (again, which overwhelmingly voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia) is hypocritical of America.
 
MildSteel said:
Ukraine should decide it's own foreign policy, so should Russia and so should the US. However, all of us will have to live with the consequences of those decisions, good or bad. Obama, Hillary, Nuland and that neocon crowd at the Heritage Foundation have decided to take the US down this very dangerous path. We will see where it leads.
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Why is it a dangerous path?
Because Putin doesn't approve? If that is the case then you really don't think Ukraine has the right to decide it's own future and that Putin has the right to interfere in another countries foreign policy.
Sorry you cant have it both ways.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Russia isn't doing so well in the economic war over Ukraine. I suspect they will find a way to get out of there while claiming victory pretty soon.
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I suspect they will protect their front yard....at all costs.
 
By "Offer" what do you folks mean when you say Ukraine has little to "offer" NATO?

Strategic protection agreements to counter Russian aggression is the whole point of NATO. If we reject Ukraine because we fear Russian retaliation then just fold up NATO and go home, it would be as feckless as the rest of our foreign policy these days.

It seems odd to keep casting Putin as a leader who does not want conflict and then turning chicken**** every time a diplomatic decision might annoy Putin. Screw the little troll and his tin pot dictatorship.
 
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Dittohead not! said:
If their "front yard" means the Ukraine, then it only needs protection from the Russians.
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That depends upon one's perspective, doesn't it?

For us, Ukraine is a country or region on the other side of the globe.

For Russia, Ukraine is their front yard or back yard, depending.
 
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