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Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

Simpleχity;1064182127 said:
No, I do not. But I do know that I was in Ukraine for most of 2014 and witnessed what I speak of firsthand.
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I believe you. It sounds like it is a big mess.
 
MildSteel said:
I believe you. It sounds like it is a big mess.
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Da. It is a big mess. A mess which could perhaps be manageable if Russia departed eastern Ukraine and allowed Ukrainians the time and space to solve their issues internally. It wouldn't be easy of course, but the rebels must realize by now that Russia will not annex Donbass/Luhansk nor subsidize these regions financially (Russia has its own immense economic problems). No funding or trade is available from the international community either. This is Ukraine's "Rust Belt" that depends on coal and steel production. However, most of this industry has either been destroyed by warfare or is antiquated. Additionally, the economics of these industries is only viable if pegged to the Ukrainian hryvnia (₴). Unemployment is high as is warlordism. As it is, these breakaway "republics" cannot survive on their own. This is a human catastrophe waiting to happen unless some form of rapprochement with Ukraine is negotiated.
 
Simpleχity;1064182262 said:
Da. It is a big mess. A mess which could perhaps be manageable if Russia departed eastern Ukraine and allowed Ukrainians the time and space to solve their issues internally. It wouldn't be easy of course, but the rebels must realize by now that Russia will not annex Donbass/Luhansk nor subsidize these regions financially (Russia has its own immense economic problems). No funding or trade is available from the international community either. This is Ukraine's "Rust Belt" that depends on coal and steel production. However, most of this industry has either been destroyed by warfare or is antiquated. Additionally, the economics of these industries is only viable if pegged to the Ukrainian hryvnia (₴). Unemployment is high as is warlordism. As it is, these breakaway "republics" cannot survive on their own. This is a human catastrophe waiting to happen unless some form of rapprochement with Ukraine is negotiated.
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Although I hear what you are saying with regards to Russia exiting eastern Ukraine, because Ukraine is a high vital interest of Russia, it is unrealistic to expect that they will TOTALLY do so. Over and above that even if they did, the tensions that exist between ultra-nationalist and ethnic Russians would still exist and would be a substantial obstacle to overcome, especially after all that has transpired.
 
MildSteel said:
Although I hear what you are saying with regards to Russia exiting eastern Ukraine, because Ukraine is a high vital interest of Russia, it is unrealistic to expect that they will TOTALLY do so.
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The Russians are an occupation force on foreign soil. They must depart in order to end the crippling international sanctions and salvage their sinking economy. If they departed, I tend to think Ukraine/Russian relations could be reset and be at least amicable. To various degree, neither nation can isolate itself from the other. I understand that it is probably a shock to their national psyche, but Russia has to realistically deal with the fact that the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the European community. They are simply fed up with Czarist/Soviet/Russian governance models. Crimea at the present time seems insolvable.

MildSteel said:
Over and above that even if they did, the tensions that exist between ultra-nationalist and ethnic Russians would still exist and would be a substantial obstacle to overcome, especially after all that has transpired.
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The Ukraine government offered the rebels numerous concessions. A higher degree of regional autonomy. Language protections etc. The rebels refused everything other than outright independence. These regions cannot survive isolated from Ukraine and the world at large. Conditions are rapidly deteriorating. People are freezing and starving to death. Let the people decide if they now wish to continue down this path to catastrophe. Hold an open regional referendum under the aegis of international monitors. As it stands now, no one truly knows the majority sentiment. If the majority of the people in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions wish to continue down this road to disaster, then so be it. But this decision cannot be arrived at democratically and fairly without a total Russian withdrawal from Ukrainian territory.
 
Simpleχity;1064182922 said:
The Russians are an occupation force on foreign soil. They must depart in order to end the crippling international sanctions and salvage their sinking economy. If they departed, I tend to think Ukraine/Russian relations could be reset and be at least amicable. To various degree, neither nation can isolate itself from the other. I understand that it is probably a shock to their national psyche, but Russia has to realistically deal with the fact that the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the European community. They are simply fed up with Czarist/Soviet/Russian governance models. Crimea at the present time seems insolvable.


The Ukraine government offered the rebels numerous concessions. A higher degree of regional autonomy. Language protections etc. The rebels refused everything other than outright independence. These regions cannot survive isolated from Ukraine and the world at large. Conditions are rapidly deteriorating. People are freezing and starving to death. Let the people decide if they now wish to continue down this path to catastrophe. Hold an open regional referendum under the aegis of international monitors. As it stands now, no one truly knows the majority sentiment. If the majority of the people in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions wish to continue down this road to disaster, then so be it. But this decision cannot be arrived at democratically and fairly without a total Russian withdrawal from Ukrainian territory.
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My point is this, Ukraine is a vital interest of Russia, and as such, they are not going to totally withdraw from Ukraine, any more than the US will TOTALLY withdraw from the Middle East. That's just reality.
 
MildSteel said:
My point is this, Ukraine is a vital interest of Russia, and as such, they are not going to totally withdraw from Ukraine, any more than the US will TOTALLY withdraw from the Middle East. That's just reality.
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It would be in Russia's interest to have a stable friendly Ukraine. Putin has worked towards the exact opposite in his invasion and annexation of Crimea and his attempts to annex eastern Ukraine.
 
I said it earlier in this thread, part of the problem is that people in the US look at the problem like a US person would look at how Russia would view the problem instead of how a Russian person views the problem. There is a difference.
 
MildSteel said:
I said it earlier in this thread, part of the problem is that people in the US look at the problem like a US person would look at how Russia would view the problem instead of how a Russian person views the problem. There is a difference.
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Putin wants to annex or frighten neighboring countries into submission.
Doesn't matter where you are from that is wrong.
 
Like I said, Russia is not going to leave Ukraine just like the US is not going to leave the Middle East. It's not going to happen.
 
MildSteel said:
Like I said, Russia is not going to leave Ukraine just like the US is not going to leave the Middle East. It's not going to happen.
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Yes it will but probably not while Putin is still alive
 
Just as there is no one who can make the US give Texas back to Mexico, there is simply no one who can make them leave. No one. That is true now, that will be true after Putin is gone. It's not going to happen.
 
I wonder has anyone in Europe or the US thought out what's going to happen in Ukraine when the Greece like conditions take firm hold. I think it's going to greatly empower the ultra-nationalist, Nazi like elements in Ukrainian society. That could mean bad news for the EU.
 
MildSteel said:
Just as there is no one who can make the US give Texas back to Mexico, there is simply no one who can make them leave. No one. That is true now, that will be true after Putin is gone. It's not going to happen.
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Texas is not a sovereign nation.

Some of the Texans seem to think it is, but it isn't.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Texas is not a sovereign nation.

Some of the Texans seem to think it is, but it isn't.
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What? Texas isn't a sovereign nation? Them be fighting words buddy!!! :lamo

The point is this Texas was indeed part of Mexico at one time. There was a fight and that was the end of it. Old Santa Claus Anna was busy with some cute chick when Sam Houston sneaked up on him. Texas isn't going back to Mexico. There simply is no one, short of the Supreme Lord, who can make that happen.
 
Yep, them high yellow black girls are the prettiest on the face of the Earth. Betta watch out for em! :lamo
 
MildSteel said:
What? Texas isn't a sovereign nation? Them be fighting words buddy!!! :lamo

The point is this Texas was indeed part of Mexico at one time. There was a fight and that was the end of it. Old Santa Claus Anna was busy with some cute chick when Sam Houston sneaked up on him. Texas isn't going back to Mexico. There simply is no one, short of the Supreme Lord, who can make that happen.
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Yes, it was, and no, no force short of the Supreme Being will make it go back. The Ukraine, on the other hand, is a sovereign nation and not a state or possession of Russia.

High yellow black girls??????
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, it was, and no, no force short of the Supreme Being will make it go back. The Ukraine, on the other hand, is a sovereign nation and not a state or possession of Russia.

High yellow black girls??????
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You never heard of the Yellow Rose of Texas?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Oh.

Yes, I believe I have. I hear her eyes are bright as diamonds, they sparkle like the dew.
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I see you have been partaking! ;)

Yep, they will do that to ya. Make you say all kind of stuff, some say they can make you speak in tongues! lol

By the afternoon of April 18, 1836, General Santa Anna had moved his men into position to attack the Texas rebels he knew to be nearby. On his approach was New Washington - now mostly deserted as its inhabitants fled before his marching army. One of those that remained behind, however, was Emily, and Santa Anna was immediately struck by her beauty.

The next morning, after his men helped themselves to the crops and cattle, Santa Anna set about securing one more "spoil of war" - Emily. He captured her and a young "yellow boy" named Turner loading yet another flatboat headed for Houston's army. Santa Anna cajoled Turner to lead his Mexican scouts to the Houston encampment. But as they were departing, Emily convinced Turner to escape from Santa Anna's men and rush to Houston's camp to inform him of the Mexican general's arrival.

General Santa Anna believed himself quite the ladies' man. And although still married to a woman in Mexico, he remarried one of his teenaged captives from his Texas campaign. But he had been without his most recent bride for two weeks now. Emily looked like she would make a very suitable replacement.

Thus, he ordered the immediate setting up of his encampment on the plains of the San Jacinto despite protestations from his colonels who insisted the location violated all principles of wartime strategy. And they were right. Houston, upon hearing of Santa Anna's location from Turner, moved his troops into the woods within a scant mile of the beguiled general's headquarters.

On the morning of April 21, Houston climbed a tree to spy into the Mexican camp. There he saw Emily preparing a champagne breakfast for Santa Anna, and reportedly remarked, "I hope that slave girl makes him [Santa Anna] neglect his business and keeps him in bed all day." [Garner]

By afternoon, the great final battle for the independence of Texas was engaged. The Mexican army was caught completely by surprise, and Santa Anna was literally caught "with his pants down." (Reports at the time said he was caught running away from the battle with his studded silk shirt opened and concealed under a dead soldier's blue smock - hurriedly put on during his attempted escape.)
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MildSteel said:
I see you have been partaking! ;)

Yep, they will do that to ya. Make you say all kind of stuff, some say they can make you speak in tongues! lol
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I didn't know that. I did know about the battle of San Jacinto, of course, but the history of the Yellow Rose is another matter.

Thanks for the history lesson.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I didn't know that. I did know about the battle of San Jacinto, of course, but the history of the Yellow Rose is another matter.

Thanks for the history lesson.
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That was interesting. Now, some say it is only a legend, while others say it is true. I honestly don't know for sure, but I tend to believe it.

Concerning high yellow black girls, Jasmine Guy was very pretty, but I'm telling you, I have seen many girls that beautiful in the southern part of my home state. OMG! You have never seen anything like that.

smallerJasmine+Guy+JGuy.jpg
 
Now this girl made me realize why Muslim women are required to cover up. Man, you can hurt somebody like this.

katerina-graham.jpg

That's too pretty! If you didn't know her name is Katerina Graham. Please give her my regards if you know her! ;)
 
If there is any doubt about dem high yellow black girls, here is another of Miss Graham

KaterinaGrahamTwo.jpg
 
Henry David said:
It seems highly likely that you do not know the difference between one's country, its government, and its media. :3oops:
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Well I obviously I know better than yourself. Carry on though. I find yours and some other posts here quite amusing as you defend Russia.
 
MildSteel said:
I believe people in the US tend to look at things like a US person would see how others think rather than seeing as that person sees it. There is a difference. Another thing is that it may be possible that because the US is a relatively new, collection of diverse people, it may be somewhat difficult to grasp the conception of a people, such as the Russian people, and how that group people may feel about things. Looks different when you view it in those terms.
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That is very true. However I will still take my western views over a country that controls it's media with an iron fist.
 
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