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Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

Henry David said:
That depends upon one's perspective, doesn't it?

For us, Ukraine is a country or region on the other side of the globe.

For Russia, Ukraine is their front yard or back yard, depending.
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Did America invade Canada when they became friendly with Cuba?
 
If Russia doesn't like this...well guess what? Too f-ing bad. if Ukraine wants to join NATO, that's their right.
Putin can complain all he wants, but in the end, he can take that complaint and shove it up his anal cavity.
 
Henry David said:
That depends upon one's perspective, doesn't it?

For us, Ukraine is a country or region on the other side of the globe.

For Russia, Ukraine is their front yard or back yard, depending.
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Yes, it is.

It still is an independent and sovereign nation, at least for now.
 
DA60 said:
Russia did not 'invade' the Donetsk region.
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The Russian paratroopers captured in Ukraine is but one example. I suggest you peruse the pertinent Ukraine threads in the Europe forum.

DA60 said:
The Donetsk region held a referendum which was overwhelmingly for leaving the Ukraine and joining Russia.
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The 4 November 2014 illegal rebel referendum violated the Minsk Agreement (signed by the rebels) and has not been been recognized any nation including Russia.

All nations, including Russia, have recognized the national Ukrainian elections held on 26 October 2014.

DA60 said:
But if America can bomb countries at will then I don't see why Russia cannot defend a region that voted to join up with it.
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This is not about American actions. Stay on-topic please.

DA60 said:
This whole embargo nonsense for Russia's actions in the Donetsk region and the Crimea (again, which overwhelmingly voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia) is hypocritical of America.
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33 nations have imposed sanctions and 100 UN nations resolved not to recognize Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea.
 
MildSteel said:
It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
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If they want to vote that way fine, but I do not think they are in any position in the next decade or so to become member of Nato. They are not politically stable, have individuals of highly dubious character in positions of power and the country is in an internal civil war/conflict. All of these things make them a country that is not nato worthy.
 
Peter King said:
If they want to vote that way fine, but I do not think they are in any position in the next decade or so to become member of Nato. They are not politically stable, have individuals of highly dubious character in positions of power and the country is in an internal civil war/conflict. All of these things make them a country that is not nato worthy.
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What i want to see are more "Made in Ukraine" products on the shelves.
 
MildSteel said:
It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
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What the Ukraine needs is open markets and free trade. Let's do it.
 
joG said:
What i want to see are more "Made in Ukraine" products on the shelves.
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I am not, not feeling a whole lot of love towards Ukraine, not even in the peace on earth time of the year.
 
Simpleχity;1064124010 said:
One of the myriad NATO membership requirements is that the petitioning state not be involved in a territorial dispute.
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To expand on this:

Study on NATO Enlargement

6. States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.
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This is the NATO membership policy that Putin overtly perverts. Purposeful destabilization is accomplished via Russian GRU/FSB intelligence operations and military incursions that have occurred in prospective NATO members Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine.
 
Simpleχity;1064126770 said:
The Russian paratroopers captured in Ukraine is but one example. I suggest you peruse the pertinent Ukraine threads in the Europe forum.


The 4 November 2014 illegal rebel referendum violated the Minsk Agreement (signed by the rebels) and has not been been recognized any nation including Russia.

All nations, including Russia, have recognized the national Ukrainian elections held on 26 October 2014.


This is not about American actions. Stay on-topic please.


33 nations have imposed sanctions and 100 UN nations resolved not to recognize Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea.
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OK, I get it. In this game we observe from the other side of the Atlantic, this game between NATO and Russia, we must focus only on Russia whilst ignoring the actions or history of the other player.

Got it, you like a very biased perspective.
 
Peter King said:
I am not, not feeling a whole lot of love towards Ukraine, not even in the peace on earth time of the year.
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Oh, I am not proposing this, because I am sympathetic towards the Ukrainians. The ones I have met were almost like the Russians I have known. But that is hardly the point. A stable country in Europe is better than a one in civil war or even one in disarray. The EU cannot handle that and we could easily see another war. We do not need that.
 
Quag said:
Why is it a dangerous path? Because Putin doesn't approve?
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Diplomacy is the art of compromise. Compromise means that the parties involved give up some of what they approve of so that others will do some things that they do not approve of that you want them to do. That is the way mature adults behave because it is obvious that no one can have everything they want all of the time. Sometimes they have to do things that they don't want to do. In international relations, Russia cannot have all of what it wants, neither can the United States. To think that if a party cannot get what it wants in international relations that it is necessarily weak is childish. To put forward the notion that we respect the vital concerns of a nuclear armed power, that has the capability to destroy the US as we know it in less than an hour, is not necessarily giving Putin what he wants, it is an acknowledgement of the reality of the world as it is, not as we want it to be in which the US can do whatever it wants whenever it wants without putting itself in a dangerous position. In other words, to answer your question, it is a dangerous path because it has the potential to provoke a nuclear confrontation with Russia.

Quag said:
If that is the case then you really don't think Ukraine has the right to decide it's own future and that Putin has the right to interfere in another countries foreign policy. Sorry you cant have it both ways.
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I'm sorry, you can't say that only the US has the right to interfere in another country's foreign policy, especially since Ukraine is a vital interest of Russia. Yes Russia has interfered in Ukraine's foreign policy, but so has the US.
 
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Peter King said:
If they want to vote that way fine, but I do not think they are in any position in the next decade or so to become member of Nato. They are not politically stable, have individuals of highly dubious character in positions of power and the country is in an internal civil war/conflict. All of these things make them a country that is not nato worthy.
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If they want to vote to join NATO, they can do that, but it is not fine. It is even worse if NATO accepts.
 
joG said:
What the Ukraine needs is open markets and free trade. Let's do it.
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What Ukraine needs is leadership that understands the world and can put things in proper perspective.
 
MildSteel said:
If they want to vote to join NATO, they can do that, but it is not fine. It is even worse if NATO accepts.
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They can vote, as far as I am concerned, to join nato until they are blue/red in the face. But as for Nato accepting? No, please no. Or better yet, hell no, they do not deserve in Nato at this moment in time.
 
Peter King said:
They can vote, as far as I am concerned, to join nato until they are blue/red in the face. But as for Nato accepting? No, please no. Or better yet, hell no, they do not deserve in Nato at this moment in time.
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Let's suppose that they deserved to be in NATO, you think it would be fine for NATO to accept Ukraine? Would it be fine for NATO to station troops in Ukraine? Would it be fine for NATO to place nuclear missiles, aimed at Russia, in Ukraine?
 
MildSteel said:
It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
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I wonder if the annexation of Crimea had anything to do with Ukraine's move to join Nato.
 
MildSteel said:
Diplomacy is the art of compromise. Compromise means that the parties involved give up some of what they approve of so that others will do some things that they do not approve of that you want them to do. That is the way mature adults behave because it is obvious that no one can have everything they want all of the time. Sometimes they have to do things that they don't want to do. In international relations, Russia cannot have all of what it wants, neither can the United States.
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No one claimed that. However that doesn't give Russia the right to invade another country.

To think that if a party cannot get what it wants in international relations that it is necessarily weak is childish. To put forward the notion that we respect the vital concerns of a nuclear armed power, that has the capability to destroy the US as we know it in less than an hour, is not necessarily giving Putin what he wants, it is an acknowledgement of the reality of the world as it is, not as we want it to be in which the US can do whatever it wants whenever it wants without putting itself in a dangerous position. In other words, to answer your question, it is a dangerous path because it has the potential to provoke a nuclear confrontation with Russia.
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No Putin is trying to rebuild the soviet empire and annex lands from neighboring countries. That is Putin wanting everything his way or threatening and actually invading when he doesn't get what he wants.




I'm sorry, you can't say that only the US has the right to interfere in another country's foreign policy, especially since Ukraine is a vital interest of Russia. Yes Russia has interfered in Ukraine's foreign policy, but so has the US.
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Never said the USA had the right to intervene in another countries foreign policy. So you can drop that failed strawman. If Ukraine wants to Join NATO, it is their NATO's decision. NOT the USA's decision nor does it mean the USA is interfering with their foreign policy. Now if the USA said join NATO or we will invade (you know, the diplomatic tactics Putin is using) That would be interfering.
 
MildSteel said:
If they want to vote to join NATO, they can do that, but it is not fine. It is even worse if NATO accepts.
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Why is it not fine? It is their decision not Putin's.
 
Cardinal said:
I wonder if the annexation of Crimea had anything to do with Ukraine's move to join Nato.
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Nah that was all about Putting just rearranging the map to make things better for the Ukrainians. After all he is only thinking of their well being.
 
MildSteel said:
What Ukraine needs is leadership that understands the world and can put things in proper perspective.
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You mean that Russia is a big threat to it? I think they might have properly grasped that perspective.
 
MildSteel said:
Let's suppose that they deserved to be in NATO, you think it would be fine for NATO to accept Ukraine? Would it be fine for NATO to station troops in Ukraine? Would it be fine for NATO to place nuclear missiles, aimed at Russia, in Ukraine?
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I think, as long as the relationship with Russia is so unstable, it might be smarter to have a friendship agreement with Ukraine instead. In this friendship agreement we can guarantee several things like protection during an invasion, military aid and the right of Ukrainian soldiers to train with Nato forces etc. etc. without them being actual members of Nato.

And there can not be nuclear missiles in Ukraine, a country with such a level of instability is not a country that should be given nuclear weapons IMHO. Nuclear proliferation should be avoided IMHO.
 
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