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U.S., Cuba to restore diplomatic relations after 50 years

Grant said:
No, your response was to me and it made no sense.

Is it your feeling that unless human rights are debated and resolved everywhere then it is hypocrisy to deal with Cuba?
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It is hypocrisy to use it as a reason to be involved...or not. Because then that question is very relevant....why arent we fighting for human rights in....NK, SA, China (which we have done and seen progress). China would be a good example of that we might expect, on a much smaller scale, economically and in detente, in Cuba.
 
Lursa said:
It is hypocrisy to use it as a reason to be involved...or not. Because then that question is very relevant....why arent we fighting for human rights in....NK, SA, China (which we have done and seen progress). China would be a good example of that we might expect, on a much smaller scale, economically and in detente, in Cuba.
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What makes you think human rights aren't being fought for in other counties throughout the world? In fact they are, as we have seen throughout the last century.

All you are doing, and I don't know if it is deliberate or not, is sidetracking the thread to other issues.
 
Grant said:
What makes you think human rights aren't being fought for in other counties throughout the world? In fact they are, as we have seen throughout the last century.

All you are doing, and I don't know if it is deliberate or not, is sidetracking the thread to other issues.
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We are investing and making an official statement about our stance on dealing with a country in order to initiate change in their govt for, among other stated reasons, to improve human rights?

Which ones?

And it's certainly relevant to this thread as it is "a major reason both Obama and Rubio claimed as US goals in Cuba."
 
Grant said:
What makes you think human rights aren't being fought for in other counties throughout the world? In fact they are, as we have seen throughout the last century.

All you are doing, and I don't know if it is deliberate or not, is sidetracking the thread to other issues.
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Human Rights! Yassuh boss, we be just finished eliminating the right to be human in Iraq, to the tune of perhaps a million people, we smacked, smited and smoted in Afghanistan and there are lots fewer humans bitchin' bout human rights, don't ya' know? Libya and Qaddaffi got the human right revoked just recently. We, the USA, tried to revoke those same rights in Cuba, but they didn't want to play, eh? So we just put the ol' screws to Jose Jiminez and his progeny, cousins, neighbors, and non neighbors. Ya' gots to admit, we's fair, don't ya' know. No discrimination. We'll be happy to kill them all. I can envision the USA opening the gates at Guantanamo to show off our human rights when hell freezes over. Talk a good game, do whatever evil suits you and turn the public relations information over to those perception management people that the MSM does stenographic work for. Nobody wil ever know what's goin' on, eh?
 
Grant said:
It was many times better under Batista. At a minimum people could leave.

Do you really believe Cuba isn't corrupt now???
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Ahem..

what do you have to offer as proof?

I say you are dead wrong, that the GDP has risen far above what the US mafia allowed. It is no longer a staging point for 80% of America's lust for drugs. While there is poverty by US standards, they live far better today than under the mafia. There is virtually no unemployment, no prostitution, and NO ONE goes without health care at a standard higher than the US. under the mafia if you cut your hand off chopping sugar cane, they shot you.

So, please, after having been to the island, seen the American Torture Camp with my own eyes, could you show me some data, any data, that shows "Cubans" were "better off" under the Mafia?

I suggest that other than the high rollers who sold their country out, no one was better off.
 
MMC said:
The United States on Wednesday condemned what it called Cuba's practice of repression following the detention of several activists, in the first major test of President Barack Obama's policy shift toward normalizing relations with the communist-ruled island. The arrests marked the most significant crackdown on the opposition since Cuba and the United States agreed on Dec. 17 to restore diplomatic ties and put behind them more than five decades of hostility.

The State Department said it was deeply concerned by the detention on Tuesday of several "peaceful civil society members and activists" by the Cuban authorities."We strongly condemn the Cuban government's continued harassment and repeated use of arbitrary detention, at times with violence, to silence critics, disrupt peaceful assembly and freedom expression, and intimidate citizens," the State Department said in a statement. "We urge the government of Cuba to end its practice of repressing these and other internationally protected freedoms and to respect the universal human rights of Cuban citizens," it added.....snip~

U.S. condemns Cuba's 'practice of repressing' after activists detained | Reuters

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tice-repressing-after-activists-detained.html

:Oopsie
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Hey MMC! And good morning.

I could give a rats ass about what the US says about human rights in Cuba. There are none on the south end of the island, a little illegal encampment by a belligerent nation that is breaking international law engaging in the torture of people who have been DENIED DUE PROCESS.

So, the State Department can throw all the rocks it wants from it's glass house, but the US needs to clean up its own act before it starts demanding how other nation's act, something they are being told consistently by the Chinese and likely now Havana.

I will have time for US foreign policy toward Cuba, and island I adore, when they shut down that illegal encampment and compensate Cuba for the use of the land like they do all other "allies".
 
there's really no benefit for us in normalizing relations with Cuba..the Castro regime is the sole beneficiary.

nothing changes for the Cuban people, they are still controlled by a totalitarian regime...even their movement and speech.
nothing changes for the US as far as investing in Cuba.. foreign investment in tightly controlled by the Castro regime

overall,I don't care too much ( primarily because nothing will change for the foreseeable future)... but I don't think Obama should be changing long held US foreign policy without even a debate.... in fact, I think it's ****ty he would do so... to do so with little/no resulting US benefit is just..well.. insane.
 
DaveFagan said:
Human Rights! Yassuh boss, we be just finished eliminating the right to be human in Iraq, to the tune of perhaps a million people, we smacked, smited and smoted in Afghanistan and there are lots fewer humans bitchin' bout human rights, don't ya' know? Libya and Qaddaffi got the human right revoked just recently. We, the USA, tried to revoke those same rights in Cuba, but they didn't want to play, eh? So we just put the ol' screws to Jose Jiminez and his progeny, cousins, neighbors, and non neighbors. Ya' gots to admit, we's fair, don't ya' know. No discrimination. We'll be happy to kill them all. I can envision the USA opening the gates at Guantanamo to show off our human rights when hell freezes over. Talk a good game, do whatever evil suits you and turn the public relations information over to those perception management people that the MSM does stenographic work for. Nobody wil ever know what's goin' on, eh?
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Not interested in responding to racist crap.
 
Dittohead not! said:
and the accused terrorist being tortured, the people being spied on in violation of the Fourth, or having property "forfeited" in violation of the fifth, what have they been convicted of in a court of law?

It seems to me that giving the government unconstitutional powers in the name of security is a very dangerous precedent. Maybe I just don't trust the government enough.
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Do terrorist enjoy constitutional rights in your eyes?
 
j-mac said:
Do terrorist enjoy constitutional rights in your eyes?
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Alleged terrorists.

You must agree

j-mac said:
Well then, in a free society, we also have the presumption of innocence. So, what if anything, have these bad actors been convicted of? NOTHING! So their guilt is nothing but your opinion, which means squat.
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j-mac said:
Well then, in a free society, we also have the presumption of innocence. So, what if anything, have these bad actors been convicted of? NOTHING! So their guilt is nothing but your opinion, which means squat.
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Well, that is rather the point JMAC--nobody has been convicted of anything. Bush admitted in Congress that they had not followed FISA procedures, and all Congress did was issue FISA II which granted immunity to the telecoms for having done NSA's dirty work for them.

The executive branch and the CIA tortured, and proudly so. Ever read any of Dick Cheney's recent statements? POTUS admitted we tortured some folks.

Their guilt is real, but you are so depraved that you support the crimes they committed, and pretend in your mind that they did not commit a crime. A sad situation to be sure.
 
Grant said:
None of what you say is true but why so you spell America as Amerika? That spelling was once used to disparagingly compare the United States to Communist Russia. Do you feel that the USA is any way similar to the old USSR?
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I thought it was spelled with a 'k' to disparagingly compare the US to Fascist Germany. Russia uses the Cyrillic alphabet as I understand, and it doesn't have 'k'. German, OTOH, uses our alphabet and many 'k'.

And everything I said was true--the rule of law is dead in this country. The way Wall Street and Congress interact is very much in a fascist model--bailouts of failed capitalist entities by the Public Treasury. A per capita rate of imprisonment 10 times higher than other "civilized" countries.

Yeah baby, we've come a long way.
 
Henry David said:
I thought it was spelled with a 'k' to disparagingly compare the US to Fascist Germany. Russia uses the Cyrillic alphabet as I understand, and it doesn't have 'k'. German, OTOH, uses our alphabet and many 'k'.

And everything I said was true--the rule of law is dead in this country. The way Wall Street and Congress interact is very much in a fascist model--bailouts of failed capitalist entities by the Public Treasury. A per capita rate of imprisonment 10 times higher than other "civilized" countries.

Yeah baby, we've come a long way.
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Yes I'm also pretty bothered by the Bailouts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Unlike TARP that money wasn't paid back and unlike the Banks those two entities committed securities fraud on a unprecedented scale.

Yea its corruption alright.
 
j-mac said:
Do terrorist enjoy constitutional rights in your eyes?
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Does this terrorist definition include people initiating waterboarding, torture, etc.?
Saudis cut off about 19 heads a month. Are they included?
Obviously, they have special rights because the USA is terrorizing Libya and the
UN doesn't mind. NATO doesn't mind. EU doesn't mind. Lots of dead Libyans.
US is terrorizing Syria. Same thing. Lots of dead Syrians.
USA financial actions are terrorizing Russians. EU and Ukraine collaterol damage.
Exactly what do you mean?
 
Henry David said:
I thought it was spelled with a 'k' to disparagingly compare the US to Fascist Germany. Russia uses the Cyrillic alphabet as I understand, and it doesn't have 'k'. German, OTOH, uses our alphabet and many 'k'.
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So you feel the United States is somehow similar to fascist Germany? Or National Socialist Germany? It seems you either don't know much about the United States or don't know much about Nazism.

And everything I said was true--the rule of law is dead in this country. The way Wall Street and Congress interact is very much in a fascist model--bailouts of failed capitalist entities by the Public Treasury. A per capita rate of imprisonment 10 times higher than other "civilized" countries.
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The rule of law is not dead. You have been misinformed.
 
Henry David said:
Well, that is rather the point JMAC--nobody has been convicted of anything. Bush admitted in Congress that they had not followed FISA procedures, and all Congress did was issue FISA II which granted immunity to the telecoms for having done NSA's dirty work for them.

The executive branch and the CIA tortured, and proudly so. Ever read any of Dick Cheney's recent statements? POTUS admitted we tortured some folks.

Their guilt is real, but you are so depraved that you support the crimes they committed, and pretend in your mind that they did not commit a crime. A sad situation to be sure.
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No, Henry....I am NOT "depraved" as you state...What I know is this...Those that went over the line, and I admit that some did exceed that line, were prosecuted, and convicted for it. But, People like you are so concerned with "context" when defending against claims in debate, and love to use it to dismiss anything that goes against your arguments, but are unwilling to apply it when you choose to make claims of your own....I call that hypocrisy.

Now the context is that when 9/11 happened, we were caught with our pants around our ankles, and intelligence that had huge holes in it...IOW, we didn't know what was coming. That was due to lots of demo policies in the past that not only devastated the CIA operations of intelligence gathering abroad, but also 'stove piping' between agencies that resulted in not having what we needed to defend this country...With that in mind, we took action to rectify that, and now liberals like Fienstein are doing the exact same thing by releasing her one sided report designed to rewrite history, and exonerate demo's, while Senators like Fienstein, and Rockefeller were IN the damned briefings, and went along with it....

There is likelyhood that we will never agree on this, but allow me to ask...What happens when say, you, and others get their way, and the US is not allowed to get the intel we need to stay on top of this Global war that we didn't ask for, didn't attack first, and haven't solved, and are attacked again? Then I suppose you'll stupidly say that whom ever is in office at the time is responsible for not seeing it coming, when in fact with arguments like this, you are advocating for applying the blindfold in the first place.
 
Grant said:
So you feel the United States is somehow similar to fascist Germany? Or National Socialist Germany? It seems you either don't know much about the United States or don't know much about Nazism.

The rule of law is not dead. You have been misinformed.
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Well, he thinks we attacked ourselves on 9/11 so what do you expect? :shrug:
 
Grant said:
So you feel the United States is somehow similar to fascist Germany? Or National Socialist Germany? It seems you either don't know much about the United States or don't know much about Nazism.

The rule of law is not dead. You have been misinformed.
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Well, you're partially correct. Visit any county courthouse on any given day and you will discover many people being prosecuted for violating this law or that law, mostly traffic violations. Visit any federal courthouse and you will see the same thing, mostly drug violations.

But consider any of the high profile stories. Fast & Furious, NSA violations, torture violations and myriad other cases of government agents and high elected and appointed officials in violation of numerous laws and you will see that nothing at all is being done to enforce the law against those officials. As Obama noted at the beginning of his administration, we must look forward, not backwards.

Ordinary citizens are prosecuted under the full weight of the law, but cops are mostly exempt, and elected officials are exempt.

See what I mean? Or will you pretend that no law is ever broken by elected officials?
 
j-mac said:
Well, he thinks we attacked ourselves on 9/11 so what do you expect? :shrug:
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It's a little more complicated than that JMAC. Probably not TOO complicated for you to grasp, but it must be close to that. :3oops:
 
Henry David said:
It's a little more complicated than that JMAC. Probably not TOO complicated for you to grasp, but it must be close to that. :3oops:
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Oh please...did you, or did you not say that we attacked ourselves with drone airliners?
 
j-mac said:
Oh please...did you, or did you not say that we attacked ourselves with drone airliners?
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No, I did not say "we attacked ourselves with drone airliners."

I said the story told is accurate in very few details, maybe only one. Otherwise, the story is a hoax, a deception. Yes airplanes struck the towers, but the rest of it--HOGWASH.
 
Henry David said:
No, I did not say "we attacked ourselves with drone airliners."
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You didn't? You sure about that?

"Yes, airplanes DID fly into those towers, but they were drone aircraft controlled by wicked men working behind the scenes in what might best be described as the military industrial complex."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rosecutions-us-torture-55.html#post1064145327

Hmmm....That sure seems to me that you are saying that American's attacked America....

Then you go further when I asked what happened to the passengers on those flights....

"There is no proof that any of those passengers actually boarded said flights, and some evidence suggesting, at least at Boston, that nobody boarded those flights."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rosecutions-us-torture-60.html#post1064153536

That's insane....I would love to watch you stand in front of a group of families that lost their loved ones in those planes, and spout such nonsense....Maybe you should stop listening to so much Alex Jones, and come on into the real world.

I said the story told is accurate in very few details, maybe only one. Otherwise, the story is a hoax, a deception. Yes airplanes struck the towers, but the rest of it--HOGWASH.
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Oh yeah...You're an atheist that is also a biblical scholar, and now wear all the hats, from structural engineer, to pilot, to CIA intel officer, to National Security Adviser....Yeah, me thinks just another run of the mill conspiracy theorist...I'll pass on your opinions thanks.
 
j-mac said:
You didn't? You sure about that?

"Yes, airplanes DID fly into those towers, but they were drone aircraft controlled by wicked men working behind the scenes in what might best be described as the military industrial complex."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rosecutions-us-torture-55.html#post1064145327

Hmmm....That sure seems to me that you are saying that American's attacked America....

Then you go further when I asked what happened to the passengers on those flights....

"There is no proof that any of those passengers actually boarded said flights, and some evidence suggesting, at least at Boston, that nobody boarded those flights."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rosecutions-us-torture-60.html#post1064153536

That's insane....I would love to watch you stand in front of a group of families that lost their loved ones in those planes, and spout such nonsense....Maybe you should stop listening to so much Alex Jones, and come on into the real world.



Oh yeah...You're an atheist that is also a biblical scholar, and now wear all the hats, from structural engineer, to pilot, to CIA intel officer, to National Security Adviser....Yeah, me thinks just another run of the mill conspiracy theorist...I'll pass on your opinions thanks.
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Oh, we're in love. Sweet.

I would love for you, or anybody else, to prove that those flights were boarded. Your appeal to emotion is duly noted, and we're way off topic.
 
Henry David said:
Oh, we're in love. Sweet.

I would love for you, or anybody else, to prove that those flights were boarded. Your appeal to emotion is duly noted, and we're way off topic.
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Indeed we are. From recognizing Cuba to the Truther 9/11 conspiracy theory nonsense. What a leap.
 
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