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U.S., Cuba to restore diplomatic relations after 50 years

Dittohead not! said:
We have a much better one than do nations where people are "disappeared" just walking down the street, to be sure. If our system doesn't need reform, though, how is it that we have more prisoners than the British, the French, the Italians, the Spanish? Are Americans just more prone to break laws? If that's so, why? This issue should be a motive for a bit of introspection, and not simply comparing our society to that of places like North Korea.
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I'm not a criminologist, so to speak authoritatively on the subject of reform is not for me to do. But, I would wager that very few of us on here have a background in that field, including you Ditto, so what we have are our own opinions...Mine is that maybe we have too many laws on the books...
 
j-mac said:
So, the fact that our system is not a perfect one, gives you the right in your head to ignore laws you don't like?
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No, that doesn't give me the right and power to break any law I please.

What gives me the right is that sovereignty thing, individual sovereignty.

Now, when I do that I do understand that I may be caught doing it, arrested, and charged according to the rules. And be willing to do the time, if that's what it requires. Like those Irish guys in that movie some years ago.

When I'm driving in a pack of other cars doing 15 over the speed limit on the interstate I don't think about it that much. As Louis Brandeis noted a century ago, the law will be respected when it is respectable. Ditto for the men enforcing it. Illegitimate laws DO exist.
 
Henry David said:
No, that doesn't give me the right and power to break any law I please.

What gives me the right is that sovereignty thing, individual sovereignty.

Now, when I do that I do understand that I may be caught doing it, arrested, and charged according to the rules. And be willing to do the time, if that's what it requires. Like those Irish guys in that movie some years ago.

When I'm driving in a pack of other cars doing 15 over the speed limit on the interstate I don't think about it that much. As Louis Brandeis noted a century ago, the law will be respected when it is respectable. Ditto for the men enforcing it. Illegitimate laws DO exist.
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If there is what you determine as "illegitimate laws" then you as a citizen don't get to just ignore them, you should work to either change them, or have them removed from the books...But no, you don't get to just ignore the law that you disagree with.
 
vesper said:
Congress had already amended the travel restrictions in 2010 for Americans to travel to Cuba.
Congress had already been working on legislation to open a new embassy in Havana.
Congress had already started discussions in opening up banking in Cuba.

Obama made it sound like there was nothing being done to reach those goals. There is a divide on both sides of the aisle on how to proceed with Cuba. And for good reason. The Cuban-American population is very unhappy with Obama at the moment. They know this does nothing to bring freedom to the Cuban people. Only getting rid of Castro and his regime will.

I question the timing of Obama's latest E.O. You see Russia is a big trade partner and friend with Cuba. The Ruble tanked yesterday. Venezuela is a big trade partner with Cuba. Venzuala's economy is on the skids as well. You think Obama could have done a better deal getting the two Americans back, neither one spies but were unjustly imprisoned without releasing 3 Cuban spies who killed 4 Americans. Cuba is hurting economically because of its partners. But then again it's not surprising considering he was willing to release several vicious terrorists from Gitmo in exchange for one U.S. deserter.

Edit- And Obama stated in his announcement this afternoon that sanctions don't work. So why the Hell does he keep piling them on in Iran, in North Korea and Russia at the moment?
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Marco Rubio is an ass and just mad that Obama stole his thunder. Yeah...we'll be waiting and waiting and waiting....and so will the Cuban people.

And hey, maybe Obama did it so Rubio cant take credit later and (supposedly) increase his chance at the White House.

Seems like perfectly normal politics to me.
 
zimmer said:
Traded three spies for an aid worker.

Not smart... as brutal regimes could see this as an opportunity to use Americans as "bargaining chips".
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Who cares? Spies...big deal. The better relations become, the less relevant they are.
 
Anthony60 said:
Don't hold your breath for a pro Obama rant, he is the one perpetrating this mistake.

They are a totalitarian regime. Political prisoners. State sponsor of terrorism. Oppressive, communist dictatorship. And we should ignore that and just open an embassy in Havana? Are you kidding? I see no upside. What upside are you seeing? And don't tell me that if we are nice to them they will change. And we get what in return?
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Why not? We do so with Saudi Arabia and did it with China. And look how things have opened more and benefitted the people in China.

The upside is the people will benefit. Raul is open to this, so if change is acceptable by the Castros, then there is more likelihood it will continue after they are gone, since the underpinnings are being established.
 
Grant said:
In order to recommence diplomatic relations with Cuba Obama might have done some negotiating on the human rights issue, for example. Apparently this was not done.
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Like we do so much for human rights in Saudi Arabia whom we bend over backwards for?
 
Lursa said:
Marco Rubio is an ass and just mad that Obama stole his thunder. Yeah...we'll be waiting and waiting and waiting....and so will the Cuban people.

And hey, maybe Obama did it so Rubio cant take credit later and (supposedly) increase his chance at the White House.

Seems like perfectly normal politics to me.
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WTH? Did you not read through this thread? The first one to come out against Obama was a Democrat, Senator Menendez of New Jersey who is over the committee currently in the Senate. He was left out of the loop of all of Obama's backdoor deals in regard to Cuba and is vehemently against them. When he loses his chair this month to a Republican, he openly asked that the Republican fight Obama's decision to push this through with another EO. This is an issue that has support for or against on both sides of the aisle. For you to try and make a claim that this is somehow a political stunt by Rubio is BS to the 10th degree.
 
vesper said:
WTH? Did you not read through this thread? The first one to come out against Obama was a Democrat, Senator Menendez of New Jersey who is over the committee currently in the Senate. He was left out of the loop of all of Obama's backdoor deals in regard to Cuba and is vehemently against them. When he loses his chair this month to a Republican, he openly asked that the Republican fight Obama's decision to push this through with another EO. This is an issue that has support for or against on both sides of the aisle. For you to try and make a claim that this is somehow a political stunt by Rubio is BS to the 10th degree.
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No I havent finished the thread and may not even do so.

Another politician's actions dont change Rubio's and Rubio is the one who I heard making the statements on the news.

And political moves and stunts are.....politics. I gave reasons.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Indeed. And belittling Congress and trying to marginalize their role in the governance of America is just the ticket to smoothing over differences and getting everyone on that bipartisan bandwagon.

But hey, since I consider Democrats in the White House to be a blight on world issues, I have no serious problem with Obama destroying the Democrat brand over his remaining two years.
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They are marginalizing themselves. They have proven clearly that they put their infighting above the interests of the country.
 
the embargo is worthless as a changer of Cuban internal or externals. The sole reason t keep it on was supposed to be some kina pressure on the regime when the Castros die off to force a democratic transition.

Whatever you think of the Cuban gov't (not much )-whatever reasons for the Cuban revolutions - they wound up swapping
one set off problems for the people to another.
The regime/transition is just not amendable to US pressures or sanctions .
 
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Lursa said:
No I havent finished the thread and may not even do so.

Another politician's actions dont change Rubio's and Rubio is the one who I heard making the statements on the news.

And political moves and stunts are.....politics. I gave reasons.
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Well maybe you should go do a search on what Senator Menedez (D) NJ stated before Rubio ever made a public statement before coming to such feckless conclusions. You obviously have not looked at this issue on both sides. For those who are against Obama's actions have a very compelling argument.
 
vesper said:
Well maybe you should go do a search on what Senator Menedez (D) NJ stated before Rubio ever made a public statement before coming to such feckless conclusions. You obviously have not looked at this issue on both sides. For those who are against Obama's actions have a very compelling argument.
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There are 2 sides. One took way too long and lost it's chance at getting credit. The other accomplished it. IMO, from what I read, Rubio made it sound like other countries' human rights were our responsibility. Uh huh...only when we decide we care about those human rights for our own ends. Like hands off Saudi Arabia, like opening up diplomatically to communist China (oh heh...sounds familiar) and seeing a difference made there.....

Rubio:

“These changes will lead to legitimacy for a government that shamelessly, continuously abuses human rights,” he said. “But it will not lead to assistance for those whose rights are being abused. It is just another concession to a tyranny – by the Obama administration – rather than a defense of every universal and inalienable right that our country was founded on and stands for."


Again, it's not our job to change other govts and make them conform to our idea of democracy. See how well that worked out in Iraq? We are completely selective about it, based on *our own interests.* Again: Saudi Arabia.

Rubio is just a kid who lost the game and is mad. And working with the Pope, there's certainly a good chance at change for the better for the people.
 
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annata said:
the embargo is worthless as a changer of Cuban internal or externals. The sole reason t keep it on was supposed to be some kina pressure on the regime when the Castros die off to force a democratic transition.

Whatever you think of the Cuban gov't (not much )-whatever reasons for the Cuban revolutions - they wound up swapping
one set off problems for the people to another.
The regime/transition is just not amendable to US pressures or sanctions .
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Sanctions can only work if the people will rise up and force change or if the reigning power cares about the people. For 50 yrs neither has come about in Cuba. NK certainly doesnt care and it's people are too downtrodden and starved to rise up. We can name others.
 
Lursa said:
Sanctions can only work if the people will rise up and force change or if the reigning power cares about the people. For 50 yrs neither has come about in Cuba. NK certainly doesnt care and it's people are too downtrodden and starved to rise up. We can name others.
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pretty much so. North Korea and many totalitarian regimes have the army/police to enforce despotic rule,
so it's costly for the people to rise up. Cuba isn't any different and that makes it very difficult for another revolution of the Cuban people.
Cuba

Cuba is a totalitarian state controlled by Fidel Castro, who is chief of state, head of government, First Secretary of the PCC, and commander in chief of the armed forces. Castro seeks to control most aspects of Cuban life through the Communist Party and its affiliated mass organizations, the government bureaucracy, and the state security apparatus.
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Lursa said:
Like we do so much for human rights in Saudi Arabia whom we bend over backwards for?
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I agree that all world leaders speak out against the human rights atrocities being carried out in the Muslim world but this thread is about Cuba.
 
j-mac said:
I'm not a criminologist, so to speak authoritatively on the subject of reform is not for me to do. But, I would wager that very few of us on here have a background in that field, including you Ditto, so what we have are our own opinions...Mine is that maybe we have too many laws on the books...
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I post opinions on subjects on which I'm no expert all the time, and so do you.
I agree that we have way too many laws on the books, but what do I know? I'm on expert on prisons.
 
Lursa said:
Why not? We do so with Saudi Arabia and did it with China. And look how things have opened more and benefitted the people in China.
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Why would we apply the same policies to totally different situations? Are Saudi Arabia and China the same? Are they the same as Cuba? Obviously, no.
The upside is the people will benefit. Raul is open to this, so if change is acceptable by the Castros, then there is more likelihood it will continue after they are gone, since the underpinnings are being established.
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If you believe that the Castros will let one penny trickle down to the people, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
 
Grant said:
I agree that all world leaders speak out against the human rights atrocities being carried out in the Muslim world but this thread is about Cuba.
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My responses to Vesper were regarding Marco Rubio's comments after Obama's speech where he discussed human rights, period. Not just in Cuba. I was pointing out the hypocrisy.
 
Anthony60 said:
Why would we apply the same policies to totally different situations? Are Saudi Arabia and China the same? Are they the same as Cuba? Obviously, no.


If you believe that the Castros will let one penny trickle down to the people, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
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Didnt say the approaches should be the same but if, as Rubio claims, we should be protecting human rights everywhere then we obviously are not doing that...we are doing it where it suits our best interests. Not to mention that he's most likely wrong. Raul Castro was speaking at the same time and the changes discussed are designed to oopen up trade and travel and it's hard to imagine it making Cuban lives worse with trade embargos to be lifted and a better economy and communication with the US.
 
j-mac said:
If there is what you determine as "illegitimate laws" then you as a citizen don't get to just ignore them, you should work to either change them, or have them removed from the books...But no, you don't get to just ignore the law that you disagree with.
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In a free society, you DO get to ignore them and disobey them. Caveat is that one is then exposed to legal repercussions. It's quite simple.

For example, elected officials can break laws regarding torture as they please. They can violate laws regarding FISA or the Fourth Amendment, as they please. And in this day and age they suffer no legal repercussions for breaking those laws.

Welcome to Amerika!! :3oops:
 
Henry David said:
In a free society, you DO get to ignore them and disobey them. Caveat is that one is then exposed to legal repercussions. It's quite simple.

For example, elected officials can break laws regarding torture as they please. They can violate laws regarding FISA or the Fourth Amendment, as they please. And in this day and age they suffer no legal repercussions for breaking those laws.

Welcome to Amerika!! :3oops:
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Well then, in a free society, we also have the presumption of innocence. So, what if anything, have these bad actors been convicted of? NOTHING! So their guilt is nothing but your opinion, which means squat.
 
j-mac said:
Well then, in a free society, we also have the presumption of innocence. So, what if anything, have these bad actors been convicted of? NOTHING! So their guilt is nothing but your opinion, which means squat.
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and the accused terrorist being tortured, the people being spied on in violation of the Fourth, or having property "forfeited" in violation of the fifth, what have they been convicted of in a court of law?

It seems to me that giving the government unconstitutional powers in the name of security is a very dangerous precedent. Maybe I just don't trust the government enough.
 
Lursa said:
My responses to Vesper were regarding Marco Rubio's comments after Obama's speech where he discussed human rights, period. Not just in Cuba. I was pointing out the hypocrisy.
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No, your response was to me and it made no sense.

Is it your feeling that unless human rights are debated and resolved everywhere then it is hypocrisy to deal with Cuba?
 
Henry David said:
In a free society, you DO get to ignore them and disobey them. Caveat is that one is then exposed to legal repercussions. It's quite simple. For example, elected officials can break laws regarding torture as they please. They can violate laws regarding FISA or the Fourth Amendment, as they please. And in this day and age they suffer no legal repercussions for breaking those laws. Welcome to Amerika!! :3oops:
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None of what you say is true but why so you spell America as Amerika? That spelling was once used to disparagingly compare the United States to Communist Russia. Do you feel that the USA is any way similar to the old USSR?
 
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