• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Man kills 6 family members, still at large.

We train soldiers how to survive in war. We don't train them how to survive once they're home.
 
Suspect wanted in 6 killings near Philadelphia found dead | Fox News

At least the guy had the decency to self-terminate.

I haven't really been following this but my understanding is that there's a 17 year old kid who just lost his whole family due to this guy. I'm not sure how you get over something like that. It's just a bum deal all the way around with this one.
 
Lutherf said:
Suspect wanted in 6 killings near Philadelphia found dead | Fox News

At least the guy had the decency to self-terminate.

I haven't really been following this but my understanding is that there's a 17 year old kid who just lost his whole family due to this guy. I'm not sure how you get over something like that. It's just a bum deal all the way around with this one.
Click to expand...

I saw that too. Glad the sonofabitch did himself in.

To answer your second part...he won't get over it, not completely. He will move on, and try to be as normal as possible. But something like this will stay with you forever. I remember a case near where I grew up a decade or so ago where there were 2 sons in the family, one adopted (and lousy), and one biological (and good). The adopted son labelled bullets "Mom" and "Dad", and killed each one of them. I thought his brother would end up leading a lousy life, but he found religion, and after graduating from Dartmouth, he went on to be a very successful minister who runs missions and other things. I guess every teen reacts to something like this differently.
 
Kushinator said:
We train soldiers how to survive in war. We don't train them how to survive once they're home.
Click to expand...

There are some places in Pennsylvania that are creating special veterans courts in the common pleas level to try to help these people hold it together when they do run into trouble with the law. It is a start. There is only so much you can do though. Crazy will happen no matter how much we spend in time and treasure trying to prevent it.
 
Paleocon said:
Thank you got demonstrating the depth of your ignorance. We were the first liberal democracy.
Click to expand...
No we were not. We where a republic, then a oligarchy. America was founded as a republic, now its a oligarchy. We have never been a democracy.
 
Fenton said:
LOL !!!

It was when you said Universal health care would give people access to the Health Care " they need and desire ".

I couldn't help myself !!

More Central planning Bull **** lies to suck in the easily entertained, huh ??

Yes, take profit out of it to make it " equitable " and let " the people " run it... LOL !!

Oh, and the Democrats were on board officially for the Wars when they voted FOR the Iraq resolution.
Click to expand...
I have said many times I don't like the dems either. I am a socialist. They are very far from socialism.

You can have universal healthcare without central planing. I think we should have direct democracy, its about as far as possible from central planning.

Do educate yourself on these topics if you wish to discuss them.
 
b_dubz said:
Manhunt for 'Armed and Dangerous' Suspect in Pennsylvania Shooting Spree - ABC News

Early this morning a ex military man who served in Iraq killed six people including his ex wife and a 14 year old girl. He is still at large.

To me this is yet another reason to stop the wars. Allot of the people that come back suffer from PTSD, and that can make them unstable.
Click to expand...

Life in general is unstable, so the blows that cause PTSD can come from anywhere, not just a war zone. And war will never be entirely eliminated. Abandoning childish ideals earlier in life is most recommended. It doesn't hurt as much when realizing much further down the road in life that you'd propped yerself up on nothin' but pipedreams.
 
APACHERAT said:
G.W. Bush is a neoconservatives and the neoconservative movement started with in the Democrat Party by liberal Democrats.

Both liberals with in the Democrat Party today and neoconservatives who fled to the GOP when the extreme radical left aka "New Left" hijacked the Democrat Party believe in nation building.
Click to expand...

Neo conservatism is a manifestation of the thinking of one man, Leo Strauss. He did not believe in liberalism by any means, and constantly questioned whether exceptionalism and liberty could live together. He is the father of the neoconservative thinkers that started out as liberal, and he himself was never liberal. Furthermore not all of them started as liberal, Kristol and Wursmer certainly did not.

The thing that brought them all together was regansim. That's what converted the republican ones to conservatism, and brought them all together. They literally worked for him with the exception of Wurmser.

Their are plenty of more classical conservatives in the republican party that believe in nation building. Just look at John Mcaine among many others.

Also if dems are the ones that believe in nation building, why is it every war except for Korea and those under Clinton, began with a republican president? And why is Eisenhower that fathered the extremely flawed "domino theory" idea? An idea that has led to more wars in the post ww2 era than any other... Eisenhower was also one of the first corporatist presidents, appointing 7 millionaire business men and one union leader to his cabinet. None of whom had any expertise in politics, and obvious vested interests elsewhere.

Democrats have expanded wars (technically military conflicts) greatly in some cases, like Vietnam, but a republican still started that war (Eisenhower)

the term 'neocon' has evolved to simply be a shorthand version of "war supporting conservative" that's how I was using it.

Honestly IMO both conservatism and liberalism have been dead in America for at least 50 years, possibly longer. We are stuck with corporatists on both sides...
 
Last edited:
instagramsci said:
This is pretty close to home for me. I hope they catch the guy before he can kill anyone else
Click to expand...
They got him... It looks like he committed seppuku...

Yea this is pretty close to home for me two, and my gf works in that county... Scary stuff man... this area is having the nuts come out by the fistful it would seem. At least he wasn't targeting random people, that's what I thought when they first broke the story... That some dude had gone to different houses and was killing random people... It doesn't make it any better obviously, but it did make my gf feel allot safer about going to work that day....

This is the kind of thing police should focus on, not irrational drug wars, protestors, or defending each other when they commit crimes themselves...
 
Last edited:
herenow1 said:
Not everyone sees combat!
Click to expand...
Yea its a still hard to go into a warzone and not see combat or the ramifications of it, and most do see combat. He was deployed as a marine from 2002 to 2011 in Iraq, I would be shocked if he did not...
 
tres borrachos said:
This is a truly awful situation. Please don't use this tragedy to promote an anti-war agenda. It's inappropriate and disrespectful.
Click to expand...
No its reality. You don't think those that are in combat situations have a higher likelihood to snap?

If you cant examine actions at home and relate them to what where doing elsewhere, and the implications of sending Americans over to do them, your really just not seeing the bigger picture.
 
b_dubz said:
Yea its a still hard to go into a warzone and not see combat or the ramifications of it, and most do see combat. He was deployed as a marine from 2002 to 2011 in Iraq, I would be shocked if he did not...
Click to expand...
The fact that it would shock you shows quite well that you really don't know what you are talking about. . The majority of people who deploy do not see any combat what so ever. There are a ton of Marines as well as Soldiers who never leave the super FOB they live on.
 
braindrain said:
The fact that it would shock you shows quite well that you really don't know what you are talking about. . The majority of people who deploy do not see any combat what so ever. There are a ton of Marines as well as Soldiers who never leave the super FOB they live on.
Click to expand...
That does not mean they do not see the aftermath, which can be scarring as well...

I know ten people that have deployed. They all have scene combat except one, who is mechanics core. One of them is currently in Jordan working as a edged weapons specialist, and periodically deploys to Iraq to raid IS held areas...

So based on my personal experience, it really depends on what you go into. If their is fighting, and you genuinely want to see combat, you probably will...
 
b_dubz said:
No its reality. You don't think those that are in combat situations have a higher likelihood to snap?

If you cant examine actions at home and relate them to what where doing elsewhere, and the implications of sending Americans over to do them, your really just not seeing the bigger picture.
Click to expand...

He was home from Iraq for almost 4 years. He was locked in a bitter custody battle with his ex-wife. They were in court as recently as last week. She was telling people for years that she was afraid of him. There is zero evidence that he "snapped" because of his time in Iraq.

Thousands of people served in wars on behalf of this country and didn't kill the families of their former spouse.
Thousands of men and women have killed their families after never having seen a second of military service.

You're making this an anti-war statement with no data to back it up, and you are using his ex-wife's dead family members to promote an agenda here.
 
tres borrachos said:
He was home from Iraq for almost 4 years. He was locked in a bitter custody battle with his ex-wife. They were in court as recently as last week. She was telling people for years that she was afraid of him. There is zero evidence that he "snapped" because of his time in Iraq.

Thousands of people served in wars on behalf of this country and didn't kill the families of their former spouse.
Thousands of men and women have killed their families after never having seen a second of military service.

You're making this an anti-war statement with no data to back it up, and you are using his ex-wife's dead family members to promote an agenda here.
Click to expand...
Actually he claimed to have suffered from PTSD, and his fellow marines said he had "been off" for a while now... But ya know just make assumptions...
 
b_dubz said:
Actually he claimed to have suffered from PTSD, and his fellow marines said he had "been off" for a while now... But ya know just make assumptions...
Click to expand...

In April 2008, the Artillery Meteorological Man — someone who assists with military fire accuracy — began a tour in Ramadi, Iraq and returned home just two months later after health issues cropped up with his wife, Nicole Hill Stone, the men said.

While they were home, Stone would regularly discuss the tumultuous relationship with his wife, Perone said.

“He would openly talk about it. He always talking about how she was crazy and they were going through divorce at that time,” the Marine said. “He was so defeated at that time. He was broke. A lot of his money is going toward that.”

Perone said years went by without him seeing Stone until 2011 when the 35-year-old re-enlisted. Stone wasn’t the same man though, according to Perone. He would talk about having troubles with post-traumatic stress disorder and the medication prescribed by doctors with the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs for it, he said.

“The lasting image in my head is when he came back and talked about the VA doctors and prescriptions. You know someone long enough, you can tell that there was a difference,” Perone said. “He had a new girlfriend, but obviously he was still very stressed with the situation with his ex-wife.”



Shooting Spree Suspect Had Odd Reputation, Known Issues With Ex-Wife: Fellow Marines | NBC 10 Philadelphia

But please continue to use his dead ex-wife and her dead family members for political purposes.
 
tres borrachos said:
In April 2008, the Artillery Meteorological Man — someone who assists with military fire accuracy — began a tour in Ramadi, Iraq and returned home just two months later after health issues cropped up with his wife, Nicole Hill Stone, the men said.

While they were home, Stone would regularly discuss the tumultuous relationship with his wife, Perone said.

“He would openly talk about it. He always talking about how she was crazy and they were going through divorce at that time,” the Marine said. “He was so defeated at that time. He was broke. A lot of his money is going toward that.”

Perone said years went by without him seeing Stone until 2011 when the 35-year-old re-enlisted. Stone wasn’t the same man though, according to Perone. He would talk about having troubles with post-traumatic stress disorder and the medication prescribed by doctors with the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs for it, he said.

“The lasting image in my head is when he came back and talked about the VA doctors and prescriptions. You know someone long enough, you can tell that there was a difference,” Perone said. “He had a new girlfriend, but obviously he was still very stressed with the situation with his ex-wife.”



Shooting Spree Suspect Had Odd Reputation, Known Issues With Ex-Wife: Fellow Marines | NBC 10 Philadelphia

But please continue to use his dead ex-wife and her dead family members for political purposes.
Click to expand...
He claimed to suffer from PTSD. That same article says so, and maybe unstable people have a tendency to join the military. My friend in Jordan was almost a heroin addict before he joined (he was addicted to oxycottin) furthermore pointing out the flaws in wars of aggression is not "using" a tragic situation, its pointing out the common sense implications of it.

But please continue building a straw man...
 
b_dubz said:
Democrats have expanded wars (technically military conflicts) greatly in some cases, like Vietnam, but a republican still started that war (Eisenhower)

the term 'neocon' has evolved to simply be a shorthand version of "war supporting conservative" that's how I was using it.

Honestly IMO both conservatism and liberalism have been dead in America for at least 50 years, possibly longer. We are stuck with corporatists on both sides...
Click to expand...

You are historically wrong, the Vietnam War wasn't started in Vietnam by Esienhower. President Esienhower's strategy when he was POTUS was to stop Communist expansion in South East Asia in Laos, not in South Vietnam. As a general a five star general who won the war in Europe during WW ll he knew something about war, strategy and tactics. The key to stopping communist expansion was preventing North Vietnam access to what would become known as the "Ho Chi Minh Trail" which begins in Laos.

Also Gen./President Esienhower watched the mistakes that France made during the first Indochina War and knew that you couldn't make a stand at the 17th parallel.

When JFK became President, outgoing Esienhower warned JFK if your going to make a stand against communist expansion in South East Asia it has to be in Laos not in South Vietnam. He also told JFK not to get involved with the Diem regime that it was to corrupt.

JFK refused to listen to his elders who were more experienced and knowledgeable and instead listed to those inexperienced Harvard buddies of his known at the time "The Young and Brightest."

JFK ignored Esienhower and most of his military advisers and with the help of the CIA decided on regime change in the RVN. In 1963 JFK signed off on the CIA backed military coup that backed fire when the Diem brothers were murdered. From that day on, Vietnam became America's problem, we owned South Vietnam. A few weeks later JFK would meet the same fate as Diem.

Note: The word "neocon" was coined by the "New Left" to label liberals who were anti communist.
Conservatives have a long track record of isolationist. "Peace Through Strength." A large well trained military, no body will want to **** with you.
 
APACHERAT said:
You are historically wrong, the Vietnam War wasn't started in Vietnam by Esienhower. President Esienhower's strategy when he was POTUS was to stop Communist expansion in South East Asia in Laos, not in South Vietnam. As a general a five star general who won the war in Europe during WW ll he knew something about war, strategy and tactics. The key to stopping communist expansion was preventing North Vietnam access to what would become known as the "Ho Chi Minh Trail" which begins in Laos.

Also Gen./President Esienhower watched the mistakes that France made during the first Indochina War and knew that you couldn't make a stand at the 17th parallel.

When JFK became President, outgoing Esienhower warned JFK if your going to make a stand against communist expansion in South East Asia it has to be in Laos not in South Vietnam. He also told JFK not to get involved with the Diem regime that it was to corrupt.

JFK refused to listen to his elders who were more experienced and knowledgeable and instead listed to those inexperienced Harvard buddies of his known at the time "The Young and Brightest."

JFK ignored Esienhower and most of his military advisers and with the help of the CIA decided on regime change in the RVN. In 1963 JFK signed off on the CIA backed military coup that backed fire when the Diem brothers were murdered. From that day on, Vietnam became America's problem, we owned South Vietnam. A few weeks later JFK would meet the same fate as Diem.

Note: The word "neocon" was coined by the "New Left" to label liberals who were anti communist.
Conservatives have a long track record of isolationist. "Peace Through Strength." A large well trained military, no body will want to **** with you.
Click to expand...

No Vietnam started in 1955. Eisenhower was in office. That's simply a fact. JFK did expand troops in nam greatly, but we already had troops their, sent by Eisenhower. Furthermore he started the sick "domino theory" that resulted in all those wars and us overthrowing multiple governments in south America among other places because we where scared of communism spreading.

Eisenhower gave diem financial support throughout his presidency, so your basically saying Eisenhower was a huge hypocrite...

Jfk did the same as Eisenhower by expanding the war Eisenhower started and backing diem as Eisenhower did. Furthermore he new nothing of the assassination (that was the CIA and military industrial complex's doing)

Kennedy had planned to exile diem, he was quoted as saying the assassination was "particularly abhorrent" and when people tried to console him by telling him they where despots he said "No. They were in a difficult position. They did the best they could for their country." So again your just wrong their...

Allot of the reason for the jfk assassination was probably the diem brothers death and his reaction. He started realizing that the military industrial complex was a real threat (like Eisenhower warned the nation) and started attempting to stem the tide in Washington. I have always thought that's what got him killed.

No it was coined to label liberals who where anti Stalinist, not communist. Their is a huge difference between the two, and a communist government is a oxymoron (you literally can't have one, by definition if you achieve communism their is no more government)

However the word has evolved (specifically the abbreviation neocon) to mean war supporting conservative.

Conservatives have claimed for a long time that they don't support wars abroad, but the facts of the last 60 years or so do not back up this claim. Again conservatives started every war except for those under Clinton and Truman.

Heck Reagan (a icon for most cons today) invaded Grenada and was quoted as saying "Defense is not a budget item. You spend what you need."
Which he most certainly did. Not very conservative if you ask me, but hey no one else republicans have elected really was either...
 
apdst said:
He was probably ****ed up, before he went to war. Murders like this aren't typically a sign of PTSD.
Click to expand...
No but such personality flaws can be brought out by things like PTSD, that would never necessarily manifest otherwise...
 
b_dubz said:
No but such personality flaws can be brought out by things like PTSD, that would never necessarily manifest otherwise...
Click to expand...

Pshycotic behavior isn't connected to PTSD,
 
apdst said:
Pshycotic behavior isn't connected to PTSD,
Click to expand...
Hilarious and incorrect. In fact some doctors believe psychotic symptoms should also be a symptom of PTSD. They certainly can co-occur and have a higher likely hood to in people with PTSD. Psychotic symptoms can be connected to trauma as well...
 
b_dubz said:
No Vietnam started in 1955. Eisenhower was in office. That's simply a fact. JFK did expand troops in nam greatly, but we already had troops their, sent by Eisenhower. Furthermore he started the sick "domino theory" that resulted in all those wars and us overthrowing multiple governments in south America among other places because we where scared of communism spreading.

Eisenhower gave diem financial support throughout his presidency, so your basically saying Eisenhower was a huge hypocrite...

Jfk did the same as Eisenhower by expanding the war Eisenhower started and backing diem as Eisenhower did. Furthermore he new nothing of the assassination (that was the CIA and military industrial complex's doing)

Kennedy had planned to exile diem, he was quoted as saying the assassination was "particularly abhorrent" and when people tried to console him by telling him they where despots he said "No. They were in a difficult position. They did the best they could for their country." So again your just wrong their...

Allot of the reason for the jfk assassination was probably the diem brothers death and his reaction. He started realizing that the military industrial complex was a real threat (like Eisenhower warned the nation) and started attempting to stem the tide in Washington. I have always thought that's what got him killed.

No it was coined to label liberals who where anti Stalinist, not communist. Their is a huge difference between the two, and a communist government is a oxymoron (you literally can't have one, by definition if you achieve communism their is no more government)

However the word has evolved (specifically the abbreviation neocon) to mean war supporting conservative.

Conservatives have claimed for a long time that they don't support wars abroad, but the facts of the last 60 years or so do not back up this claim. Again conservatives started every war except for those under Clinton and Truman.

Heck Reagan (a icon for most cons today) invaded Grenada and was quoted as saying "Defense is not a budget item. You spend what you need."
Which he most certainly did. Not very conservative if you ask me, but hey no one else republicans have elected really was either...
Click to expand...

You are aware that the PLAF aka VC waged a war of terrorism until 1961. Before 1961 the PLAF engaged in terrorist bombings, assassination of teachers, public government officials , hamlet leaders and the Vietnamese peasant, etc. The first time the VC would engage ARVAN in combat was in 1961.
The NVA (North Viet Nam Army) didn't enter the war until 1965.
 
APACHERAT said:
You are aware that the PLAF aka VC waged a war of terrorism until 1961. Before 1961 the PLAF engaged in terrorist bombings, assassination of teachers, public government officials , hamlet leaders and the Vietnamese peasant, etc. The first time the VC would engage ARVAN in combat was in 1961.
The NVA (North Viet Nam Army) didn't enter the war until 1965.
Click to expand...

That's true but ARVAN was fighting NLF in 1955, and the PLAF... we are fighting a war against supposed terrorists right now is that not a war?

Also vc just means Vietnamese communist. Technically all these groups are vc, although originally it meant communists in the south I believe...

Furthermore why would we send "military advisors" (a fancy way of saying troops) to Vietnam if their was no one fighting?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom