• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Man kills 6 family members, still at large.

Manhunt for 'Armed and Dangerous' Suspect in Pennsylvania Shooting Spree - ABC News

Early this morning a ex military man who served in Iraq killed six people including his ex wife and a 14 year old girl. He is still at large.

To me this is yet another reason to stop the wars. Allot of the people that come back suffer from PTSD, and that can make them unstable.

You're right. It's probably the result of PTSD contracted due to fighting in our wars of liberal expansionism.
 
You're right. It's probably the result of PTSD contracted due to fighting in our wars of liberal expansionism.
Yes because bush was the liberal who started those wars?
 
Can we avoid the partisan mudslinging while the shooter is still out at large, guys?
 
This seems like an issue of a person dealing with mental illness. It's a shame that it came down to him killing his wife. However, what it highlights is that more needs to be done help veterans who suffer from PTSD/depression etc. I've been saying for years that the right and left are full of **** when it comes to caring for vets. However, nobody has listened (maybe Cherokee, but he's RIP). As sad as this story is, it can be used to show why funding for mental health is so important and how both civilians and the military can benefit from it. I doubt a lot of people will listen and this thread will degenerate into a guns argument or a war argument. However, those who wish to discuss measures to help people with mental health can address me and maybe something constructive can come from all of this.
 
Yes because bush was the liberal who started those wars?

Bush was a neoconservative. Basically the idea that the reason liberalism is bad is because it harms freedom (which is a liberal idea in the first place).

Those wars were most certainly fought to spread liberal democracy to those countries. It was in the name of the operations for goodness sake.
 
I'm not saying he does have PTSD or not, but the article does not mention that.
No your right. I was speculating I never said they said he did.

Although I think its hard to go into a warzone (especially one like Iraq) without some type of mental trauma.
 
This seems like an issue of a person dealing with mental illness. It's a shame that it came down to him killing his wife. However, what it highlights is that more needs to be done help veterans who suffer from PTSD/depression etc. I've been saying for years that the right and left are full of **** when it comes to caring for vets. However, nobody has listened (maybe Cherokee, but he's RIP). As sad as this story is, it can be used to show why funding for mental health is so important and how both civilians and the military can benefit from it. I doubt a lot of people will listen and this thread will degenerate into a guns argument or a war argument. However, those who wish to discuss measures to help people with mental health can address me and maybe something constructive can come from all of this.
To me the answer to that is universal healthcare. Then people will always have the access they need and desire.

Not enough is done for sure. I also think a big problem with our mental health institutions here is that pharma is held privately. They have a vested interest in making pills people become dependant on, and ones that don't work that well. That way they can roll out new ones every few years and charge more...

Also prohibition of marijuana ayahuasca and even psylocibin really does not help. All three of these things have been shown to help people with PTSD. Especially weed, their is much less research into the other two because of legal bs.... And why shouldn't people be able to take the meds they choose if it helps them anyway?

Specifically I think the strains of weed (like Charlotte's web) that are very high in Cbd and low in THC could do wonders for folks that suffer from PTSD. Actually I know they could because cbd is a very strong and safe anti anxiety medication. It also does not get you high. That's thc...
 
To me the answer to that is universal healthcare. Then people will always have the access they need and desire.

Not enough is done for sure. I also think a big problem with our mental health institutions here is that pharma is held privately. They have a vested interest in making pills people become dependant on, and ones that don't work that well. That way they can roll out new ones every few years and charge more...

Also prohibition of marijuana ayahuasca and even psylocibin really does not help. All three of these things have been shown to help people with PTSD. Especially weed, their is much less research into the other two because of legal bs.... And why shouldn't people be able to take the meds they choose if it helps them anyway?

Specifically I think the strains of weed (like Charlotte's web) that are very high in Cbd and low in THC could do wonders for folks that suffer from PTSD. Actually I know they could because cbd is a very strong and safe anti anxiety medication. It also does not get you high. That's thc...

I was thinking about reasonable suggestions. Universal health care isn't going to happen anytime soon in the US and it would be political suicide for Democrats to try and pass it. I also don't think that psychedelics are the right answer to people suffering from flashbacks. I think the first step is removing stigma from mental health. The second is to educate people about what is and isn't a mental illness. I see too many people saying I'm OCD or I'm depressed. They have no idea what it means, obviously, I myself have used it in the past, but as I learn more and more about mental illness, I know these are not what I'm experiencing. So yeah, let's start with measures which are reasonable within this political climate.
 
Can we avoid the partisan mudslinging while the shooter is still out at large, guys?

Agreed wholeheartedly. All we know is something terrible happened and this fellow is on the run. Hope they catch him soon and get to the bottom of it. Sad day when we can't acknowledge six people, an entire family, has died
 
Bush was a neoconservative. Basically the idea that the reason liberalism is bad is because it harms freedom (which is a liberal idea in the first place).

Those wars were most certainly fought to spread liberal democracy to those countries. It was in the name of the operations for goodness sake.

Yea that's why I called him a neocon...

I'm all for freedom of certain levels. I do believe in regulation as well, especially in a capitalist society.

However those wars where started by people that at least call themselves conservatives, and certainly are not liberal. Theirs no getting around that.

Those wars where fought to make money. They made money for the military industrial complex, and ensured america has military bases in the ME, which we can then use to protect oil reserves if we ever get into a fight with, say China over oil.

Dick Cheney made millions off the war. He saw his stock rise 3000 percent due to the war from '04 to '05 alone. Halliburton made a estimated 40 billion off of Iraq because of no bid no audit contracts.

If we had fought wars to spread liberal democracy as you claim, why on earth would we allow them to establish a state religion? That's the total opposite of liberal democracy...

We did it for money. Plain and simple. "Operation Iraqi freedom" was pure propaganda to that end...
 
Yea that's why I called him a neocon...

I'm all for freedom of certain levels. I do believe in regulation as well, especially in a capitalist society.

However those wars where started by people that at least call themselves conservatives, and certainly are not liberal. Theirs no getting around that.

Those wars where fought to make money. They made money for the military industrial complex, and ensured america has military bases in the ME, which we can then use to protect oil reserves if we ever get into a fight with, say China over oil.

Dick Cheney made millions off the war. He saw his stock rise 3000 percent due to the war from '04 to '05 alone. Halliburton made a estimated 40 billion off of Iraq because of no bid no audit contracts.

If we had fought wars to spread liberal democracy as you claim, why on earth would we allow them to establish a state religion? That's the total opposite of liberal democracy...

We did it for money. Plain and simple. "Operation Iraqi freedom" was pure propaganda to that end...

I don't think Paleocon is using the same definition of "liberal" as you are.
 
Yea that's why I called him a neocon...

I'm all for freedom of certain levels. I do believe in regulation as well, especially in a capitalist society.

However those wars where started by people that at least call themselves conservatives, and certainly are not liberal. Theirs no getting around that.

Those wars where fought to make money. They made money for the military industrial complex, and ensured america has military bases in the ME, which we can then use to protect oil reserves if we ever get into a fight with, say China over oil.

Dick Cheney made millions off the war. He saw his stock rise 3000 percent due to the war from '04 to '05 alone. Halliburton made a estimated 40 billion off of Iraq because of no bid no audit contracts.

If we had fought wars to spread liberal democracy as you claim, why on earth would we allow them to establish a state religion? That's the total opposite of liberal democracy...

We did it for money. Plain and simple. "Operation Iraqi freedom" was pure propaganda to that end...

this nutty nonsense belongs in the CT section
 
Yea that's why I called him a neocon...

I'm all for freedom of certain levels. I do believe in regulation as well, especially in a capitalist society.

However those wars where started by people that at least call themselves conservatives, and certainly are not liberal. Theirs no getting around that.

Those wars where fought to make money. They made money for the military industrial complex, and ensured america has military bases in the ME, which we can then use to protect oil reserves if we ever get into a fight with, say China over oil.

Dick Cheney made millions off the war. He saw his stock rise 3000 percent due to the war from '04 to '05 alone. Halliburton made a estimated 40 billion off of Iraq because of no bid no audit contracts.

If we had fought wars to spread liberal democracy as you claim, why on earth would we allow them to establish a state religion? That's the total opposite of liberal democracy...

We did it for money. Plain and simple. "Operation Iraqi freedom" was pure propaganda to that end...

Whether or not money was a motive, spreading liberalism was the express purpose in the operation title. That we (praise be to God) failed, does not negate the fact.

Keep in mind that the neocon position is basically that liberalism is good, but needs to be selectively applied in order to avoid destroying itself.
 
You're right. It's probably the result of PTSD contracted due to fighting in our wars of liberal expansionism.

Liberal expansion?

Geeh, let's remember. Iraq war, started in 2002 under a Republican president, a Republican senate and a republican house of representatives but it is a war of "liberal" expansionism? No, this was a war of ill fated brain child of neo-cons who conned the people of the world into believing that Saddam was working on nukes and on chemical and biological weapons. No Paleocon, this was neocon expansionism.

And even if it were a liberal expansionism, there is no evidence that this is the cause of his violent outburst. Some people are just total dickheads and assholes who think they can do whatever they want because they own their family, it is their property to do with what they want. But even that is just speculation on my part, but it is a lot more likely than PTSD from a non-existing liberal war of expansionism.
 
Liberal expansion?

Geeh, let's remember. Iraq war, started in 2002 under a Republican president, a Republican senate and a republican house of representatives but it is a war of "liberal" expansionism? No, this was a war of ill fated brain child of neo-cons who conned the people of the world into believing that Saddam was working on nukes and on chemical and biological weapons. No Paleocon, this was neocon expansionism.

And even if it were a liberal expansionism, there is no evidence that this is the cause of his violent outburst. Some people are just total dickheads and assholes who think they can do whatever they want because they own their family, it is their property to do with what they want. But even that is just speculation on my part, but it is a lot more likely than PTSD from a non-existing liberal war of expansionism.

They were trying to turn Iraq into a liberal democracy. Thus, liberal expansion.
 
I was thinking about reasonable suggestions. Universal health care isn't going to happen anytime soon in the US and it would be political suicide for Democrats to try and pass it. I also don't think that psychedelics are the right answer to people suffering from flashbacks. I think the first step is removing stigma from mental health. The second is to educate people about what is and isn't a mental illness. I see too many people saying I'm OCD or I'm depressed. They have no idea what it means, obviously, I myself have used it in the past, but as I learn more and more about mental illness, I know these are not what I'm experiencing. So yeah, let's start with measures which are reasonable within this political climate.

It doesn't matter if its political suicide, its the right and responsible thing to do. Furthermore lack of universal healthcare is one of the main things that keeps us so low on the WHO list of healthcare. Basically they agree. And every other civilized country in the world has it. Honestly the only reason we don't is because FDR died. Had he not he would have passed the economic bill of rights which would have given us universal healthcare and education along with many other things.

Another fascinating discovery, one with implications for PTSD, is that the cannabinoid system is integrally related to memory, specifically to memory extinction. Memory extinction is the normal, healthy process of removing associations from stimuli. Dr. Mechoulam explained that an animal which has been administered an electric shock after a certain noise will eventually forget about the shock after the noise appears alone for a few days. Mice without cannabinoid systems simply never forget - they continue to cringe at the noise indefinitely.
http://veteransformedicalmarijuana.org/content/general-use-cannabis-ptsd-symptoms

Well lots of veterans would disagree about weed at least. That's why it can be prescribed for it and so many take it...

People are also starting to research other psycadelics to treat PTSD, including ayawaska, MDMA, and mushrooms with fairly promising results compared to what the medical establishment has to offer.

Yes people do tend to diagnose themselves incorrectly, but I think to some extent the stigma is starting to go away. Compare seeing a psychologist now to seeing one in the 80s. Their is allot less stigma attached now, and I see no reason for it to end.

To some extent I think your right about stigma being the problem, allot of vets see it as shameful or weakness to ask for help with it. But what about those that do seek help, and find the treatments do nothing or very little, that's what I think the much bigger issue is.

This is not a reasonable political climate, I see no reason people should be bound by it, especially researches, patients, and doctors.
 
They were trying to turn Iraq into a liberal democracy. Thus, liberal expansion.

That is some of the biggest nonsense I have seen written yet about the Iraq war in the last few years. Neocon war, neocon forces in the white house, conservatives ruling the white house, conservatives boss in the senate, conservative boss in the house and then the result is a liberal democracy?

Then the white house puts in Iraq a republican pro-temp head of state, Paul Bremer and you call that a liberal expansion :lamo :rofl:2rofll:
 
That is some of the biggest nonsense I have seen written yet about the Iraq war in the last few years. Neocon war, neocon forces in the white house, conservatives ruling the white house, conservatives boss in the senate, conservative boss in the house and then the result is a liberal democracy?

Then the white house puts in Iraq a republican pro-temp head of state, Paul Bremer and you call that a liberal expansion :lamo :rofl:2rofll:

I can't help it if you don't know what "liberal democracy" means.
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1064095046 said:
20% of them from Iraq. I would call that allot. It's the most ever during a open conflict. Furthermore the rate for most Americans is 3 to 4%. So they are 4-5 times as likely to suffer from it as the average pop...

Furthermore keep in mind allot of vets don't come forward, and with Vietnam at least the numbers rose very significantly over time, as it does not always manifest immediately. According to a NVVR study 4 out of 5 Vietnam vets now suffer from it.

Iraqi veterans also have a extremely high rate of depression, along with suicide and attempted suicide. It's actually really shocking. 5000 die from it each year. That's 6.6% of the total suicides in america... One study claims that the number is more like 8000 and that one veteran kills him/herself every 65 minutes.
 
Back
Top Bottom