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Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
Nor is it supposed to. It's the 'minimum wage.'
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So over time, as our society becomes more and more wealthy and productive, wages should decline and the standard of living should drop?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

buck said:
Seems common sense to me, but i'm sure we'll still have people arguing that the CBO and this study are just wrong and it's all "win" for MW workers.

Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession
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So from the very same article we have

"Except take this within the context of many, many other minimum wage studies, and it's all way more complicated. Deakin University's Hristos Doucouliagos and Hendrix College's T.D. Stanley showed in a 2009 paper that taken together, nearly 1,500 estimates of minimum wage effects on employment clustered right around zero effect, but with more of those estimates showing a slight downward pressure on employment."

And this:

"As they write, "with sixty-four studies containing approximately fifteen hundred estimates, we have reason to believe that if there is some adverse employment effect from minimum wage raises, it must be of a small and policy-irrelevant magnitude."

Seems far from certain how and by how much raising the minimum wage effects employment and mobility. Bottom line, they really don't know.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Declan said:
But yet you think the price people pay for labor should be based upon that they can afford it do you not?
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Nope again. That's why a minimum wage has to be mandated in some way or another (it could be a social mandate, doesn't have to be governmental).

Why is the price of labor different than the price of pickles in your mind?
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Because pickles don't create demand (they don't buy stuff).
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
So over time, as our society becomes more and more wealthy and productive, wages should decline and the standard of living should drop?
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Overtime, standards of living increases. The opposite is true for wages, as market forces will require wages to fall. We don't have inflation because the eggheads dictate that inflation is good, but inflation exist to accommodate market demands for more employment. If you didn't have inflation, people will become laid off and wages will fall regardless.

The key is for wages to surpass inflation, not the minimum wage. That can lead to cost push inflation, which is self defeating with minimum wage increases.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
Overtime, standards of living increases. The opposite is true for wages, as market forces will require wages to fall. We don't have inflation because the eggheads dictate that inflation is good, but inflation exist to accommodate market demands for more employment. If you didn't have inflation, people will become laid off and wages will fall regardless.

The key is for wages to surpass inflation, not the minimum wage. That can lead to cost push inflation, which is self defeating with minimum wage increases.
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Not a bit of that makes any sense to me. Not one bit.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
If they need help, then they can afford more help.

The only reason that a company would need more help is because it's sales are increasing. When it's sales are increasing, so is it's profitability. When a companies profitability is increasing, it can afford to pay for more help.

Typically, companies only have just enough employees to handle demand. I mean why would any company hire more people than they need (regardless of how cheaply they can hire them)?
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Guess youve never run a business
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Sabanist said:
Guess youve never run a business
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You are wrong about that. 25 years ago I left my last real job to start the business that I still own and operate today.

Sure, I would like to employ more workers, if I could afford to, just so that I can work less myself, but I don't NEED to employ more workers, I have all that I need to meet demand.

I would only consider employing more workers if demand for my products increased (an increase in sales). If my sales increased, then I would make more profit, and I could afford to hire more workers. It's that simple.

If you need more workers, but can't afford to hire them, then you are failing to make the profit that you need to make to remain in business. You should really consider increasing your profitability.
 
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Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
Nope again. That's why a minimum wage has to be mandated in some way or another (it could be a social mandate, doesn't have to be governmental).



Because pickles don't create demand (they don't buy stuff).
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Pickles create demand for dill, mustard seeds, and vinegar.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
What part didn't make sense?
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Everything between the first word and the last word of that post.

Can you explain it in a way that an idiot can understand?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Declan said:
Pickles create demand for dill, mustard seeds, and vinegar.
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No, consumers desire, along with a few bucks in their pocket, create the demand for that stuff. Pickles just sit there in a jar, until someone eats them. Maybe they create demand for toilet paper.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
There you go again, you are starting out with the assumption that McDonalds would raise the price of it's food. What I'm trying to explain is that they wouldn't have a need to increase the price of food. The increase in sales that they would get would result in enough increase in profit to cover the higher cost of labor.

When you start out with an assumption, then you can't logically think about an issue.

Maybe you don't understand that companies can't just randomly increase prices. Companies price their goods at the profit maximizing price. If they increase their prices, then their profit actually declines (because they loose sales). Competition is the biggest factor that restrains prices in the competitive free market.
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https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Deuce said:
Tons of large corporate chains have an automatic pay raise after six months of 25 to 50 cents an hour. These people technically don't make minimum wage, but should still be counted when you throw around numbers like this.
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I don't oppose a MW increase if, and only if, it is not coupled with an immediate raise of the federal poverty level and we actually see a corresponding drop in "safety net" spending. If the MW is increased 50% then we should see a drop of at least 25% in "safety net" spending. Somehow I doubt that will happen.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
Everything between the first word and the last word of that post.

Can you explain it in a way that an idiot can understand?
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My guess is she is talking about competition pushes down wages because a company can control their labor costs better than they can their other costs while competition drives them to lower prices.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
No, consumers desire, along with a few bucks in their pocket, create the demand for that stuff. Pickles just sit there in a jar, until someone eats them. Maybe they create demand for toilet paper.
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When was the last time you bought pickles that did not have mustard seeds and dill in the jar?

I bet you can get them at Walmart's new drive through store.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
In other words, 88,584 thousand people make more than $10 an hour.

You all discuss the minimum wage issue as if everyone is supposed to be making $25 dollars an hour.
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If our society was productive enough to support a min wage of $25/hr, without having any significant inflationary event, then I would be all for that.

There is a range which min wage can realistically be in. No one knows what the exact economic maximizing min wage is, but we know what the realistic range is.

The floor of that range would be just slightly higher than $0 (so let's call it a penny), and the maximum that the min wage could be (without guaranteeing significant inflation) would be the mean average income per work hour, which is close to $60/hr (GDP/aggregate work hours) - that's a law of mathematics. Now if we were at that maximimum possible amount, then everyone would make exactly the same thing, which wouldn't work well because I am sure that we can all agree that there are certain economic and social reasons why everyone shouldn't make the exact same wage - so I would suggest that maybe the realistic maximum possible min wage would be a quarter or maybe half of that, or around $30/hr (admittedly I just pulled that percentage out of my arse).

So yes, $25/hr may be possible, but that's most likely a little on the high side.

Why would you not want others to make as much money as is economically viable?
 
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Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Declan said:
When was the last time you bought pickles that did not have mustard seeds and dill in the jar?

I bet you can get them at Walmart's new drive through store.
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That's the point, it was I, a consumer, who has money in my pocket and a fondness for pickles, who created the demand to purchase the pickles, along with all their ingredients. The pickles themselves purchased nothing.

Also, pickles don't have families to feed or rent to pay. There just pickles. Are you going to start demanding that pickles have civil rights now?
 
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Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
If our society was productive enough to support a min wage of $25/hr, without having any significant inflationary event, then I would be all for that.

There is a range which min wage can realistically be in. No one knows what the exact economic maximizing min wage is, but we know what the realistic range is.

The floor of that range would be just slightly higher than $0 (so let's call it a penny), and the maximum that the min wage could be (without guaranteeing significant inflation) would be the mean average income per work hour, which is close to $60/hr (GDP/aggregate work hours) - that's a law of mathematics. Now if we were at that maximimum possible amount, then everyone would make exactly the same thing, which wouldn't work well because I am sure that we can all agree that there are certain economic and social reasons why everyone shouldn't make the exact same wage - so I would suggest that maybe the realistic maximum possible min wage would be a quarter or maybe half of that, or around $30/hr (admittedly I just pulled that percentage out of my arse).

So yes, $25/hr may be possible, but that's most likely a little on the high side.
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Doesn't matter what the minimum wage is. You pointed out that you do not hire more people because you have no need for them. Companies have no need for the people they are not hiring and are finding new ways to get rid of employees they do have. What you are you are doing is arguing that there should be a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots. I was not kidding about Walmart having a drive thru only store. Consumers want that. Walmart is also reducing the square footage of their new supercenters. Walmart is competing with Amazon prime. People can pay them an extra hundred bucks and have their pickles and many other groceries delivered to them from Amazon at no additional costs because people are too busy being their child's agent to take time to shop for their kids and are too much in a hurry to spend quality time with their friends on facebook. McDonalds is rolling out self-ordering kiosks at 2,000 US locations; Grocery stores have self-checkouts. There is a shrinking middle to the middle class. Minimum wage has nothing to do with that.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
That's the point, it was I, a consumer, who has money in my pocket and a fondness for pickles, who created the demand to purchase the pickles, along with all their ingredients. The pickles themselves purchased nothing.

Also, pickles don't have families to feed or rent to pay. There just pickles. Are you going to start demanding that pickles have civil rights now?
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You like pickles because corporate America tells you to like pickles.

And yes pickles have inalienable rights.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
Everything between the first word and the last word of that post.

Can you explain it in a way that an idiot can understand?
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1. Companies require market forces to reduce real wages, in health or sluggish economies.

2. Firms discover that some workers are more productive that others. At first glance, firms would like to give pay raises to some employees and pay cuts to others. However, workers don't like pay cuts, and unions may make them near impossible.

3. Most economist agree that an inflation target from anywhere of 1% - 2% is beneficial to prevent real wages from rising too much. If ALL workers' nominal wages go up 2% but prices also go up 2% or 1.7%, then their real wage stays the roughly hasn't changed too much.

4. Since firms find it difficult to lower nominal wages, firms respond by keeping some workers' nominal wages constant and raising the nominal wages of others. If the inflation rate is positive, say 2%, unproductive workers save face by not getting a nominal pay cut - but the workers' real wages do go down (they can't buy as much of the now more expensive stuff).

5. Without some inflation, productivity workers would receive larger pay raises at the expense of other unproductive workers who will have to face pay cuts or job losses.

6. While it is important for wages to increase enough to surpass inflation, it shouldn't be done with the minimum wage. This creates cost push inflation, where firms increase cost due to higher cost.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
So Paris Hilton is very productive?

In an ideal world, income would be based upon productivity. We would have a meritocracy. In the real world, income is based upon negotiating power.
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Paris Hilton isn't productive, but that doesn't mean that you income isn't based on productivity. Do certain people make a living by doing nothing productivity to make society better off? Sure. That doesn't invalidate the notion. No one person decides how high these people are paid. It is society as a whole.

Instead of vilifying the bankers or CEO's, people should really direct their anger at the celebrities.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
If more people worked those types of jobs, people will gain some appreciation, but lets put some things in perspective. It's not hell. It's annoying, and it's frustrating, and its very demanding, but you're not going to be paid more simply because you complain about how annoying, frustrating or demanding your job is.

There are plenty of different professions where people complain about how they aren't paid enough for what they do. Ultimately, what defines your income is your productivity, and low wage sectors, like retail trade/leisure & hospitality generally contribute less to the economy than all the other sectors, in percentage terms anyway.
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It's pretty hellacious. I worked doing repo work - that was pretty terrible. Not quite hell, but close. Retail is possibly the definition of hell. But if it's not, I've also done blown insulation and I've worked as a mover. Both of those were depressing.

You are so tired and sore after 9-14 hours of hard manual labor that you really have no life outside of work. Wake up, to work. Come home, eat, go to bed. Wake up do it again. Weekend? Well, you might actually have to work on the weekend if it's busy and you need the money (which you will).

Sorry wife and kids.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:
I use to think so too when I was just a mere cashier.

Then I learned when I got a real job...
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I said 50%. There are people who do actual work. A lot on Wall Street do actual hard work with long hours, but of course, it's for no reason because Wall Street is a giant facade that does nothing to help this country anymore.

But Doctors, scientists, construction, etc... these types of jobs earn their checks.
 
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