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Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
One company automating their entire business is somewhat logical since other industries will hold them up, but as more and more industries do it the returns to the strategy will decrease to the point that it is self defeating. Automation should after a certain threshold is reached defeat itself.
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Even before you got to that point the cost of tech support, upgrades, and licensing fees would probably make it largely self-defeating compared to what the cost of labor would become as more and more workers become available.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Why wouldn't it be logical to assume that if they can do it, and it's profitable for them to do so, that others will follow?


Seems ILLOGICAL to assume anything else, really. I mean, to assume that, you have to assume that other businesses would NOT follow, would NOT increase profitability, just to keep lego afloat.


Which of these statements seems least logical to you?
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Even if industry follows Lego's model in time the executives would notice their profits decreasing and be forced to switch business plans.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
You know, for a guy hell bent on belittling the intelligence of others, you are making a LOT of logical fallacies and mistakes in this debate. In addition, you are offering very little, if any, substance, to your responses.



Again, why are you here?
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I just offered you several links to Mises after YOU mentioned him, and you didn't read one. :lamo
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

cpwill said:
:confused: That seems, on its face, to be so wildly inaccurate, that I can only assume you have a more complex argument that you are using this as a shorthand for.
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Why does it seem so wildly inaccurate?

Are you saying firms do not have wage making power?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
One company automating their entire business is somewhat logical since other industries will hold them up, but as more and more industries do it the returns to the strategy will decrease to the point that it is self defeating. Automation should after a certain threshold is reached defeat itself.
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Ideally that should be the case. But I can't seem to come up with a mechanism that would cause that.

Let's say that you owned a widget making company, and virtually every industry had become as automated as possible, to the point that there were so few jobs, there were not enough consumers with money in their pockets to keep the economy going.

So why would you decide to suddenly start replacing automation with human labor? That wouldn't do you a bit of good, because there are still too few consumers to keep your widget factory going. And where would you come up with the money to hire people? And do you really think that just your employees alone would purchase enough of the widgets that you made to keep themselves employed and still allow you to make a profit?

It's a dilemma with no private sector solution.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
Even if industry follows Lego's model in time the executives would notice their profits decreasing and be forced to switch business plans.
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I hope that's the case, but recent events force me to believe that executives simply don't care about their companies, as long as the bonus check clears in time.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
If we had no taxes, and no government revenue, and no government spending, and thus no military, do you think that would be helpful in us maintaining our sovereignty?

Thats not really pertinent to this discussion.

Maybe you should look up "the fallacy of the excluded middle"
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Maybe you should answer the question. I think you remember what it is.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Should perfection not be a goal for us all? Should I NOT strive to achieve and live in a utopian society? Are you saying you DON'T want the best for your fellow man, that you DON'T strive for a utopian society, whatever that means to you?
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Why dont you start by trying to live in reality?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
Even if industry follows Lego's model in time the executives would notice their profits decreasing and be forced to switch business plans.
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To what? Just shutting their doors?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Actually, my claim was the precise opposite. Books, look into them.
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"Ah but I at least I get you to realize that changing the cost of labor can be harmful,"



That's your exact quote, smart guy. Can I call you smart guy? I'm gonna call you smart guy, from now on.


Anyway, the above is your exact quote. I assume you now understand your error in reasoning.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Declan said:
Even before you got to that point the cost of tech support, upgrades, and licensing fees would probably make it largely self-defeating compared to what the cost of labor would become as more and more workers become available.
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Not with an established minimum wage, though...it forces labor to never fall bellow a certain wage, regardless of supply or demand.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
I hope that's the case, but recent events force me to believe that executives simply don't care about their companies, as long as the bonus check clears in time.
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Executives have the job of keeping the businesses profits up. It would take time, but after the threshold is reached profits would start to decrease. The only real issue is how long would it take them to realize the source of the problem. Would they be as clueless as Jcpenny and keep throwing stuff at the wall when the problem is right there in their face for all to see? You have to wonder how stupid executives really are sometimes.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
I hope that's the case, but recent events force me to believe that executives simply don't care about their companies, as long as the bonus check clears in time.
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Most of them probably do care about their companies. But they aren't in charge of our macro-economy, and thus they don't attempt to change our macro-economy. The best they can do as individual companies is to do the best they can for their individual companies.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
"Ah but I at least I get you to realize that changing the cost of labor can be harmful,"



That's your exact quote, smart guy. Can I call you smart guy? I'm gonna call you smart guy, from now on.


Anyway, the above is your exact quote. I assume you now understand your error in reasoning.
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I heart this double down, "professor".
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
I just offered you several links to Mises after YOU mentioned him, and you didn't read one. :lamo
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Because I used to drink that coolaid, I probably know the theories BETTER than you do, and I have renounced it. Yes, I declare Mises WRONG. History PROVES it wrong, over and over again.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Not with an established minimum wage, though...it forces labor to never fall bellow a certain wage, regardless of supply or demand.
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Which is why its destined to fail, the laws of economics dont change for politics.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Not with an established minimum wage, though...it forces labor to never fall bellow a certain wage, regardless of supply or demand.
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Hire them as independent contractors and get rid of that whole MW thing altogether then.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
Executives have the job of keeping the businesses profits up. It would take time, but after the threshold is reached profits would start to decrease. The only real issue is how long would it take them to realize the source of the problem. Would they be as clueless as Jcpenny and keep throwing stuff at the wall when the problem is right there in their face for all to see? You have to wonder how stupid executives really are sometimes.
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Stupid? A bet you the executive from JCpenny is living a nice life right now. They're only stupid if you assume their goal is to do what's best for the most, not what's best for them, personally.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Maybe you should answer the question. I think you remember what it is.
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the minimum wage is a floor wage. Other wages are largely based upon perceived value of different jobs, whether that perception of value is real or not. If the floor wage drops, then wages above that amount will tend to drop, or at least not tend to increase. When wages of the masses are stagnate or reducing, demand also stagnates or reduces, businesses then have not incentive to expand, production drops, business profits drop, and wealth creation drops.

If a low wages created prosperity, as you imply, then countries which have the lowest wages would be the richest countries per capita, but we all know that not to be the case.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Stupid? A bet you the executive from JCpenny is living a nice life right now. They're only stupid if you assume their goal is to do what's best for the most, not what's best for them, personally.
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The executives I'm talking about were hired to fix the problems caused by the last group of idiot executives of Jcpenny. Instead of dealing with the problem right in their face they keep trying to boost sales using more or less the same strategy used by the last group of executives. :lol:
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
I heart this double down, "professor".
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I have no idea what that means, but apparently, I have to explain to you what you said.



You said changes to wages can be harmful. Which is true. They CAN be...both up, OR down. Increasing wages to high, or decreasing them too low, is likely going to cause more harm than good, as Imagep so succinctly explained to you.


Now, being that you are not actually adding anything at all to this debate, I'm pretty much going to ignore you in this thread from here on in...at least, until you come back with a post with a little substance.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Declan said:
Hire them as independent contractors and get rid of that whole MW thing altogether then.
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Independent contracting does not evade minimum wage laws. There are labor lawyers just SALIVATING over this post.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
Executives have the job of keeping the businesses profits up. It would take time, but after the threshold is reached profits would start to decrease. The only real issue is how long would it take them to realize the source of the problem. Would they be as clueless as Jcpenny and keep throwing stuff at the wall when the problem is right there in their face for all to see? You have to wonder how stupid executives really are sometimes.
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But individual companies seek only to keep their profits up. Giving up a real cost avoidance by hiring more workers would only work if every company did the exact same thing. Since individual companies compete against each other, and not as a team, then they have no motivation to act in the best interest of our macro economy, they only act in the best interest of their personal micro-economy.

A single company to increase it's profits by not operating as efficiently as possible, thus there is no "naturally" occuring mechanism to keep a downward spiral due to the lack of need for human labor from happening. The only way to stop it is by changing the rules of the game, and that can only be done by government.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
the minimum wage is a floor wage. Other wages are largely based upon perceived value of different jobs, whether that perception of value is real or not. If the floor wage drops, then wages above that amount will tend to drop, or at least not tend to increase. When wages of the masses are stagnate or reducing, demand also stagnates or reduces, businesses then have not incentive to expand, production drops, business profits drop, and wealth creation drops.

If a low wages created prosperity, as you imply, then countries which have the lowest wages would be the richest countries per capita, but we all know that not to be the case.
Click to expand...

Correction-minimum wage is an artificial, politically imposed floor. You have admitted that price manipulation to raise labor costs can be harmful, but I still await your answer as to what CHANGES that here?
 
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