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Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

bubbabgone said:
Okay ... there are a couple of problems with that approach.
1) Countries are disinclined to work with us if we show weakness because it encourages terrorism in Countries of erstwhile allies like Pakistan because it works to intimidate them into not cooperating with us.
2) We show weakness by withdrawing as we are doing and maybe even more importantly, by shooting ourselves in our own ass by releasing things like the Gitmo report which can do no good in the sense we're discussing here.
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Greetings, bubba. :2wave:

Good points! :thumbs:
 
bubbabgone said:
For one thing, the number of lives not lost and dollars not spent are not a measurement of success against terrorism.
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Nope, containing terrorism and thwarting their global efforts is. How's that metric coming along (psssst....it's not good).
 
Jack Hays said:
I already answered but you apparently did not recognize the answer. We will incur as many casualties over as many years as it takes to win.
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I know your answer "I don't know"; that's your answer. And based on your ignorance, I should back infinity war, I should back 10's of thousands of American dead, I should accept trillions of spent when it could have otherwise been spent on America and making our stuff better. You have nothing better to offer than your ignorance, and ignorance is not a solution.
 
Ikari said:
I know your answer "I don't know"; that's your answer. And based on your ignorance, I should back infinity war, I should back 10's of thousands of American dead, I should accept trillions of spent when it could have otherwise been spent on America and making our stuff better. You have nothing better to offer than your ignorance, and ignorance is not a solution.
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The cause of your hostility and name calling escapes me. Regardless, I write from a professional (albeit retired) point of view on this matter. This war was brought to us; we did not seek it. It cannot be wished away. We must fight because our enemy is determined to fight. If we are to fight then we fight to win.
 
Ikari said:
Nope, containing terrorism and thwarting their global efforts is. How's that metric coming along (psssst....it's not good).
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Let's take a current example ... do you believe we're showing 100% effort against ISIS in Iraq and Syria ... do you believe they are not a problem ... do you believe your recommendation of trade and diplomacy would in any way work with ISIS ... if the answer is no then explain how you thwart and contain them without the military.
Surely you don't believe they're being contained or thwarted now.
 
Jack Hays said:
The cause of your hostility and name calling escapes me. Regardless, I write from a professional (albeit retired) point of view on this matter. This war was brought to us; we did not seek it. It cannot be wished away. We must fight because our enemy is determined to fight. If we are to fight then we fight to win.
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There's no name calling. You don't have a solution. You have no clue as to whether or not this path we've taken will do anything. We have a long history showing it doesn't. We have current data saying it doesn't. But you ignore that for some mystical "sometime in the future" argument that you cannot back up. No plan, no solution, no idea how to even make it better. And upon that I'm suppose to say "Oh yes, Jack is right". Sorry, ignorance doesn't count. You don't even get partial credit for turning in a blank piece of paper with your name on it. You cannot demonstrate that your desire to throw lives and money at this will have any affect. Until you do, I cannot endorse it.
 
bubbabgone said:
Let's take a current example ... do you believe we're showing 100% effort against ISIS in Iraq and Syria ... do you believe they are not a problem ... do you believe your recommendation of trade and diplomacy would in any way work with ISIS ... if the answer is no then explain how you thwart and contain them without the military.
Surely you don't believe they're being contained or thwarted now.
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Not with ISIS or terrorists, but that's not who you'd be trying to effect through trade and diplomacy. You'd be targeting the People in general and an attempt to subvert terrorist propaganda.

Decades upon decades of this route hasn't produced results. Why are we to believe that decades more will?
 
Ikari said:
There's no name calling. You don't have a solution. You have no clue as to whether or not this path we've taken will do anything. We have a long history showing it doesn't. We have current data saying it doesn't. But you ignore that for some mystical "sometime in the future" argument that you cannot back up. No plan, no solution, no idea how to even make it better. And upon that I'm suppose to say "Oh yes, Jack is right". Sorry, ignorance doesn't count. You don't even get partial credit for turning in a blank piece of paper with your name on it. You cannot demonstrate that your desire to throw lives and money at this will have any affect. Until you do, I cannot endorse it.
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I don't care whether you endorse anything and, more to the point, neither does our enemy. We will fight until our enemy loses either the means or the will to attack us. To say that reflects neither ignorance nor the lack of a plan. It reflects recognition of the reality of war.
 
bubbabgone said:
Let's take a current example ... do you believe we're showing 100% effort against ISIS in Iraq and Syria ... do you believe they are not a problem ... do you believe your recommendation of trade and diplomacy would in any way work with ISIS ... if the answer is no then explain how you thwart and contain them without the military.
Surely you don't believe they're being contained or thwarted now.
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There is a FANTASTIC interview that Charlie Rose recently did with the King of Jordan. You should watch it if you can find it online. It will answer some of your concerns.
 
Jack Hays said:
I don't care whether you endorse anything and, more to the point, neither does our enemy. We will fight until our enemy loses either the means or the will to attack us. To say that reflects neither ignorance nor the lack of a plan. It reflects recognition of the reality of war.
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It reflects both ignorance and lack of plan because you have no plan. Recognition of reality means that you look at the many many decades this path has been taken and how no resolution has ever been found. How even after 13 years of this current conflict, we've only made it worse; not better.

You offer no solution, you offer no plan, you have no clue as to what end game is. Ignorance is not a solution.
 
Ikari said:
Not with ISIS or terrorists, but that's not who you'd be trying to effect through trade and diplomacy. You'd be targeting the People in general and an attempt to subvert terrorist propaganda.

Decades upon decades of this route hasn't produced results. Why are we to believe that decades more will?
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That goes back to what I said before.
What country will be influenced by our trade & diplomacy overtures if they've got their hands full trying to defend themselves against ISIS while we're offering trade & diplomacy.
 
Declan said:
There is a FANTASTIC interview that Charlie Rose recently did with the King of Jordan. You should watch it if you can find it online. It will answer some of your concerns.
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I'll do that, but Jordan and Israel have been the only 2 pretty dependable allies we have over there.
 
Ikari said:
It reflects both ignorance and lack of plan because you have no plan. Recognition of reality means that you look at the many many decades this path has been taken and how no resolution has ever been found. How even after 13 years of this current conflict, we've only made it worse; not better.

You offer no solution, you offer no plan, you have no clue as to what end game is. Ignorance is not a solution.
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Most of any war cannot be planned.

"The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle. In this sense one should understand Napoleon's saying: "I have never had a plan of operations."
Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."
 --Helmuth von Moltke


  • "On Strategy" (1871), as translated in Moltke on the Art of War: Selected Writings (1993) by Daniel J. Hughes and Harry Bell, p. 92
  • Paraphrased variants:
  • No plan survives contact with the enemy.
 
bubbabgone said:
Long time.
How've you been, Pol.
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I'm fighting the flu, like I need that now! :thumbdown: My son gave me some Nyquill *sp* and the cat bumped my arm just as I was taking it, and the stuff went on my keyboard, so I had a sticky mess to clean up - like I needed that, too! My son laughingly remarked that at least I wouldn't have to worry about a computer virus, so I alternated between laughing and swearing! :lamo:

How are you doing - did you get the snow that bypassed us? 45 degrees here, but it rained here all day so it feels more like Spring than Christmas! :shock:
 
bubbabgone said:
I'll do that, but Jordan and Israel have been the only 2 pretty dependable allies we have over there.
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He talks about the need to resolve Gaza as a first step in the Muslim war on ISIS and apparently they were very very close to a deal in secret negotiations but he wouldn't say much about how it fell apart because he thinks it is still doable. IIRC it has something to do with Israel and Iran and as soon as it started crumbling Israel made some announcement that is complicating getting people back together. King Abdullah is one smart pragmatic leader. who has the luxury of being able to speak openly and honestly. His basic mindset on ISIS is This is a Muslim problem and only the Muslim community can fix it and here is what we need to do, and have been doing. One of the more interesting admissions is that he thinks Assad will have to go eventually and that part of the strength of ISIS is that Assad targeted the moderates for killing just to make himself be the only alternative to these radical militants.
 
earthworm said:
Your opinion, Misterveritis, your sick opinion, Mr Conservative... And I am certain that there are a great many more on your side.... We are far from being a civilized nation ...maybe another 500 years ..
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I understand that some people want to be sissies. Cool for you. Some of us prefer to be manly. Cool for me.

Just because we live in the same country does not mean we agree to the suicide pact you push. Stand back and let the men handle this one. Don't let the wind blow your skirt up.
 
"We have no reason to keep anyone who is not a threat. Many thousands were captured. How many ended up in secret prisons? Less than 200? How many had harsh interrogations? Less than one hundred? How many experienced near drowning? Three."
Ikari said:
So it is claimed, but not verified. There's nothing in place to ensure we are picking up only combatants.
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I made a number of statements. Your response is comprehensible only to you.

Are you claiming many thousands were not captured?
Are you claiming some other number ended up in secret prisons?
Are you claiming some number other than less than one hundred experienced harsh interrogations?
Or are you claiming that more than three unlawful enemy combatants were waterboarded?

Or, as it might possibly be you haven't any idea what you are claiming?
 
Jack Hays said:
We have not been attacked since 9/11 because our countermeasures were effective. And no, more interagency communication would not have stopped 9/11.
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Nonsense. When we did nothing it took eight years between attacks. It was two years between attacks and our invasion. And as OBL's goal was to get us over there, and not to attack us hear, something that was expensive and difficult, he won the second Bush started invading. Since then they've cost us a lot. And while it cost them as well, we made it a war, and thus gave him credence and grew his organization and opened the door for others. Our overreaction hurt us more than helped. Cost us more than we gained. You simply aren't looking at it with clear eyes.
 
polgara said:
I'm fighting the flu, like I need that now! :thumbdown: My son gave me some Nyquill *sp* and the cat bumped my arm just as I was taking it, and the stuff went on my keyboard, so I had a sticky mess to clean up - like I needed that, too! My son laughingly remarked that at least I wouldn't have to worry about a computer virus, so I alternated between laughing and swearing! :lamo:

How are you doing - did you get the snow that bypassed us? 45 degrees here, but it rained here all day so it feels more like Spring than Christmas! :shock:
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Good one.
Got some snow the other day but not severe.
How does a person bypass winter if they can't escape anywhere?
 
bubbabgone said:
Good one.
Got some snow the other day but not severe.
How does a person bypass winter if they can't escape anywhere?
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I hadn't gotten a flu shot for years, but this year I did because they were saying it looked like a bad year for flu, And sure enough, I got the flu. Maybe I would have gotten it anyway, but that's it for me - no more flu shots! Sheesh!

My brother is seriously considering Costa Rica. They're putting their house on the market in the Spring and he says they will look at things then. He has friends from here who have relocated there, and they like it. He had knee replacement surgery a few years ago, and his house is a large tri-level, so he said it's time to sell and go where it's warm year round, and not have all those steps to contend with to get from one level to the next. I suggested he get a hut on the beach and live happily ever after! :lamo:
 
polgara said:
I hadn't gotten a flu shot for years, but this year I did because they were saying it looked like a bad year for flu, And sure enough, I got the flu. Maybe I would have gotten it anyway, but that's it for me - no more flu shots! Sheesh!

My brother is seriously considering Costa Rica. They're putting their house on the market in the Spring and he says they will look at things then. He has friends from here who have relocated there, and they like it. He had knee replacement surgery a few years ago, and his house is a large tri-level, so he said it's time to sell and go where it's warm year round, and not have all those steps to contend with to get from one level to the next. I suggested he get a hut on the beach and live happily ever after! :lamo:
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Hi Polgara,

I had to comment. Last year I got my very first flu shot. I got the flu as well, and it was terrible. Took weeks to get over. I don't know if it was a coincidence or not. But no more flu shots for me!
 
ocean515 said:
Hi Polgara,

I had to comment. Last year I got my very first flu shot. I got the flu as well, and it was terrible. Took weeks to get over. I don't know if it was a coincidence or not. But no more flu shots for me!
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Greetings, ocean515. :2wave:

I decided I didn't need to pay a doctor to get sick! It reminds me of that old saying: "Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself." :lamo:
 
Declan said:
He talks about the need to resolve Gaza as a first step in the Muslim war on ISIS and apparently they were very very close to a deal in secret negotiations but he wouldn't say much about how it fell apart because he thinks it is still doable. IIRC it has something to do with Israel and Iran and as soon as it started crumbling Israel made some announcement that is complicating getting people back together. King Abdullah is one smart pragmatic leader. who has the luxury of being able to speak openly and honestly. His basic mindset on ISIS is This is a Muslim problem and only the Muslim community can fix it and here is what we need to do, and have been doing. One of the more interesting admissions is that he thinks Assad will have to go eventually and that part of the strength of ISIS is that Assad targeted the moderates for killing just to make himself be the only alternative to these radical militants.
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Resolving Gaza is a foolish ploy. It will stop nothing.
 
Boo Radley said:
Nonsense. When we did nothing it took eight years between attacks. It was two years between attacks and our invasion. And as OBL's goal was to get us over there, and not to attack us hear, something that was expensive and difficult, he won the second Bush started invading. Since then they've cost us a lot. And while it cost them as well, we made it a war, and thus gave him credence and grew his organization and opened the door for others. Our overreaction hurt us more than helped. Cost us more than we gained. You simply aren't looking at it with clear eyes.
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It was bin Laden's intention to attack us here. That remains the intention of his followers.
 
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