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UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

joG said:
If, what was allowed, was torture, the word does not mean much. But there were some things done that went beyond the allowed. Those should be prosecuted.
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The interrogation methods were designed not to run afoul of the law.
And after no charges coming from the Justice department, likely they didn't run afoul.

Nothing the UN says can change that. We are not a party to the ICC. Nor should we be.
 
joG said:
If, what was allowed, was torture, the word does not mean much. But there were some things done that went beyond the allowed. Those should be prosecuted.
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Of those things that you are sure could be sucessfully prosecuted, can you name them?
 
Excon said:
The interrogation methods were designed not to run afoul of the law.
And after no charges coming from the Justice department, likely they didn't run afoul.

Nothing the UN says can change that. We are not a party to the ICC. Nor should we be.
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We can join the ICC, when the UN can guarantee general security believably.
 
j-mac said:
Of those things that you are sure could be sucessfully prosecuted, can you name them?
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I would have to look the exact items up, which I admit to being too lazy to do this evening. But one thing stick out in my mind. Water boarding as in the legal brief is okay under the circumstances. Dunking somebody 184 times in the cold without sleep for 400 hours is not covered and would almost certainly be punishable. I think it is important, not becouse it is morally wrong, but because it is not acceptable for agencies to overstep the restrictions imposed on them.
 
joG said:
We can join the ICC, when the UN can guarantee general security believably.
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Can and should are two different things.
I wouldn't care if they could guarantee. We should never give up jurisdiction over our citizens when we have it.
 
joG said:
I would have to look the exact items up, which I admit to being too lazy to do this evening. But one thing stick out in my mind. Water boarding as in the legal brief is okay under the circumstances. Dunking somebody 184 times in the cold without sleep for 400 hours is not covered and would almost certainly be punishable. I think it is important, not becouse it is morally wrong, but because it is not acceptable for agencies to overstep the restrictions imposed on them.
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And whom do you think should stand charges for this? Does it stop at the actual people in the room at the time, or those up the chain?
 
j-mac said:
And whom do you think should stand charges for this? Does it stop at the actual people in the room at the time, or those up the chain?
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Who ever was responsible is the short answer. Mostly you can presume that at least one maybe two hierarchy levels above the perpetrators would probably know and be responsible. Whether persons higher up were responsible of neglected control and whether persons that might have only had knowledge should walk the plank I am not sure, but tend to believe they should.
 
Excon said:
What crimes?
The Justice department already investigated the interrogation methods. No charges followed. So what crimes?
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The crimes are called torture (or war crimes or crimes against humanity). They are in violation of international treaties and the Constitution (via the Supremacy clause - Article VI). No charges were filed because the DoJ has already (illegally) granted all CIA officials blanket immunity to all involved.
 
Believe it or not, I once supported GW Bush 100% and thought he was on his way to be a great president and leader, but that ended with the invasion of Iraq, the Patriot Act, and the allegations of torture. His presidency was a massive disappoint.
 
jmotivator said:
All I know is there are a lot of Yizidi women and young girls in Syria who wake up every day to endless rapes, maiming and disfigurement thanking their lucky stars they didn't get water up their nose.
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The CIA report said a lot more things than just waterboarding occurred...
 
SheWolf said:
The CIA report said a lot more things than just waterboarding occurred...
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But the key is just how much of the "other things" are torture?... I mean, I've seen some people describe yelling at someone as such...It is getting ridiculous.
 
j-mac said:
But the key is just how much of the "other things" are torture?... I mean, I've seen some people describe yelling at someone as such...It is getting ridiculous.
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Documented cases of rape occurred at Abu Ghraib as well as pouring acid on prisoners and dragging them across the floor by ropes tied to their genitals. Dick Cheney argued that none of that was torture when he was in office. The recent CIA report concluded that at least one person died in custody at Gitmo and large tubes were routinely rammed up the rectums of prisoners so liquified food could be pumped into their body. They also concluded that innocent people and even US citizens, were detained and tortured, and denied legal council and trial for years.
 
Bob0627 said:
The crimes are called torture (or war crimes or crimes against humanity). They are in violation of international treaties and the Constitution (via the Supremacy clause - Article VI). No charges were filed because the DoJ has already (illegally) granted all CIA officials blanket immunity to all involved.
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The interrogation methods were designed to not run afoul of the law. The Justice Department investigated the interrogation methods and well... no charges followed.

Without any trial(s) all you have is opinion that torture happened. Nothing more than that.
You can argue your opinion until you are blue in the face and still no one will be charged.

And there will be no prosecutions for torture as the statute of limitations is long passed.
Nor are we party to the ICC, nor should we be.

This was nothing more than political grandstanding.
Especially as they knew no one would be charged or could be charged.

The Republicans should next do there own investigation and find out why the those involved were not interviewed.
We can already guess why, but they really should do this to show just how dumb the Democrats think the public is.
 
SheWolf said:
Documented cases of rape occurred at Abu Ghraib as well as pouring acid on prisoners and dragging them across the floor by ropes tied to their genitals. Dick Cheney argued that none of that was torture when he was in office. The recent CIA report concluded that at least one person died in custody at Gitmo and large tubes were routinely rammed up the rectums of prisoners so liquified food could be pumped into their body. They also concluded that innocent people and even US citizens, were detained and tortured, and denied legal council and trial for years.
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Nothing of the sort, in the light you cast it in, has been confirmed.
Your use of descriptives such as "rammed" make your remarks illogical and deceitful.
 
Excon said:
Nothing of the sort, in the light you cast it in, has been confirmed.
Your use of descriptives such as "rammed" make your remarks illogical and deceitful.
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US enlisted officers and personnel have been charged and some have actually served sentences for many of the abuses I listed. You can easily find the information yourself. You can simply research Bagram and Abu Ghraib, and read a list of the people investigated and charged...
 
SheWolf said:
US enlisted officers and personnel have been charged and some have actually served sentences for many of the abuses I listed. You can easily find the information yourself. You can simply research Bagram and Abu Ghraib, and read a list of the people investigated and charged...
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If it is true you can easily provided a source for each claim.

Do so.

Secondly. Forced rectal feeding does not involve "ramming" the feeding tube.
And while it may be uncomfortable, it is not torture.


Finally.
Everybody knows that individuals have acted wrongly and been prosecuted. But individuals acting wrongly in there position is not the Government acting wrongly.
Do you really not know that?
 
I am not an idiot. If you wanted to be an informed member of society, you would take the responsibility to inform yourself instead of asking me to post links upon links. You're simply trying to challenge me with a task that you'll be satisfied with, instead of seeking actual information. Simply use google and google "Bagram," and then google "Abu Ghraib," and then google "Dilawar of Yakubi."

Dilawar was an innocent Afgani man who died in custody from abuse.


It's not hard to use google.


Excon said:
If it is true you can easily provided a source for each claim.

Do so.

Secondly. Forced rectal feeding does not involve "ramming" the feeding tube.
And while it may be uncomfortable, it is not torture.


Finally.
Everybody knows that individuals have acted wrongly and been prosecuted. But individuals acting wrongly in there position is not the Government acting wrongly.
Do you really not know that?
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repeat.......
 
SheWolf said:
I am not an idiot. If you wanted to be an informed member of society, you would take the responsibility to inform yourself instead of asking me to post links upon links.
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Said the person not supporting their argument. :doh
It is not my job to support what you say.


SheWolf said:
Dilawar was an innocent Afgani man who died in custody from abuse.
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:naughty
And again.
Everybody knows that individuals have acted wrongly and been prosecuted. But individuals acting wrongly in there position is not the Government acting wrongly.
Do you really not know that?​
This thread is about supposed US torture. Not individuals who acted on their own and were prosecuted for it. Do you really not know that?



SheWolf said:
It's not hard to use google.
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Yes it is, and you are not doing it. Most likely because you know your whole spiel was nonsense in regards to this topic.
 
John Kiriakou was sentenced disclosing classified documents. Not sure why the UN is concerned about enhanced interrogation and not on indiscriminate drone and aerial bombing attacks that result in death. They would be more believable if they went after the bigger fish.
 
The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes, waterboarding, etc. came from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. According to Cheney it was "abuse."


This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

A black hood pulled over his head
Knee strikes to the abdomen
Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
Shoved against a wall
Pulled by his beard
His bare feet stepped on
Kicks to the groin
Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
Deprivation of sleep
Slammed his chest into a table front



Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.

Afghan Deaths Linked to Unit at Iraq Prison - NYTimes.com

Excon said:
Said the person not supporting their argument. :doh
It is not my job to support what you say.


:naughty
And again.
Everybody knows that individuals have acted wrongly and been prosecuted. But individuals acting wrongly in there position is not the Government acting wrongly.
Do you really not know that?​
This thread is about supposed US torture. Not individuals who acted on their own and were prosecuted for it. Do you really not know that?




Yes it is, and you are not doing it. Most likely because you know your whole spiel was nonsense in regards to this topic.
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SheWolf said:
The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. It was "abuse."
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And again irrelevant to this topic.
It was abuse by the individuals and they were prosecuted for it.
Matters not one bit if you agree or disagree with the outcome.
It was not the governement acting, but individuals.


SheWolf said:
This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

A black hood pulled over his head
Knee strikes to the abdomen
Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
Shoved against a wall
Pulled by his beard
His bare feet stepped on
Kicks to the groin
Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
Deprivation of sleep
Slammed his chest into a table front
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All irrelevant to this topic.
The Government did not do this.
Do you really not know the difference?


SheWolf said:
Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.
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Still irrelevant.
Soldiers acting on their own were not acting on behalf of the Government.
You were the one who said they were not an idiot but are having trouble distinguishing between the bad acts of a few and those of the Government. Why is that?


Rectal feeding was done by the Government and it was not torture or abuse.
 
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SheWolf said:
The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes, waterboarding, etc. came from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. According to Cheney it was "abuse."


This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

A black hood pulled over his head
Knee strikes to the abdomen
Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
Shoved against a wall
Pulled by his beard
His bare feet stepped on
Kicks to the groin
Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
Deprivation of sleep
Slammed his chest into a table front



Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.

Afghan Deaths Linked to Unit at Iraq Prison - NYTimes.com
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It would probably help get the perpetrators prosecuted, if the human rights activists did not confuse bad treatment with torture and Gitmo with Auschwitz. That has been stupid from the beginning, thoroughly counterproductive and is now only pig headed.
 
The individuals were barely prosecuted, and many times, the charges were dropped or reduced to nothing (such as a drop in rank for being involved in torturing two people to death, as cited above). The military court failed the victims, so that is on the government. The majority of people involved in torture and even torturing people to death rarely served over one year.

Furthermore, you're setting arbitrary standards for what qualifies as "government torture." I am not sure what has to occur for you to say the government was involved, but all of investigations into the question of government led torture suggests that these weren't bad apples acting alone. Instructions to torture and use the methods listed above came from the top of the government, and it was approved by the CIA to use as a means of interrogation.


Excon said:
And again irrelevant to this topic.
It was abuse by the individuals and they were prosecuted for it.
Matters not one bit if you agree or disagree with the outcome.
It was not the governement acting, but individuals.


All irrelevant to this topic.
The Government did not do this.
Do you really not know the difference?


Still irrelevant.
Soldiers acting on their own were not acting on behalf of the Government.
You were the one who said they were not an idiot, so why are you having trouble distinguishing between the bad acts of a few and those of the Government?


Rectal feeding was done by the Government and it was not torture.
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SheWolf said:
The individuals were barely prosecuted, and many times, the charges were dropped or reduced to nothing (such as a drop in rank for being involved in torturing somebody to death, as cited above). The military court failed the victims, so that is on the government. The majority of people involved in torture and even torturing people to death rarely served over one year.
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YOu really have a hard time understanding the difference between the actions of the Government and the actions of individuals. They do not equate regardless if you like or do not like the outcome.


SheWolf said:
Furthermore, you're setting arbitrary standards for what qualifies as "government torture."
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:naughty No, I am not.
That is an absurd thing to say.
You are trying to conflate different issues and make them all Government when they are not.


SheWolf said:
I am not sure what has to occur for you to say the government was involved, but all of investigations into the question of government led torture suggests that these weren't bad apples acting alone.
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No they do not.


SheWolf said:
Instructions to torture and use the methods listed above came from the top of the government, and it was approved by the CIA to use as a means of interrogation.
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Wrong.

These act by the individuals were not authorized. Had they been they would have had a complete defense.
 
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