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Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

Well, we're getting closer. From "yelled at" to "smacked around" is progress. Now, let's see if we can get to "tortured and killed".

And yes, at least some of them were innocent victims. Daliwal was one of them.

Maybe once the public recognizes what actually took place, we can put the past behind us.
But you only seem to go back to the same guy over and over, then try to represent that there were more. You don't know that, plus its quite dishonest.

Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked Joe...Do you support the current administration using drones?
 
What do you think the people brought to Gitmo were in? A US facility, with trained US personnel.

And the black sites?

You're committed to ignoring the fundamental difference of having your fellow soldiers controlling your fate versus your sworn enemy, in a hostile environment, in a foreign land.

:raises eyebrow: who told you that? SERE is a scheduled course - you are on that train until the training evolution ends. I can't think of a single time when I was being put through stress positions where "I'm too exhausted to hold this position any more" was considered an excuse.

However, if a detainee begins to give up valuable information, EIT also stopped.

I guess I'll admit defeat. Orwell has won, and we've redefined the word 'torture' as EIT and can now pretend that it's something else.

:shrug: I don't see the difference that you are trying to draw. I wouldn't say I'm determined to ignore it, I think you are attempting to create it.

Right, because being held by your enemies is just like being held by your fellow soldiers.... Give me a break. You don't even believe that.

Yeah - and had we done it to (for example) uniformed Iraqi soldiers during OIF-1, then that would also have been a crime.

I see, so now it WAS a crime. That's a different claim than before, but even with the change in position, all you're doing is hiding behind legal niceties.

That's an interesting charge. Can you demonstrate that the CIA violated the limits put on it by the Justice Department? Because that could lead to a legitimate case of torture occurring.

Was rectal feeding an authorized interrogation technique? Hypothermia?

Torture has defined legal meaning, it's not "what we think is mean".

So, if the WH or CIA can get its lawyers to fit something in a legal box, we are expected to say, "Well, it's legal, so we should do it. QED." What difference does that make to this discussion - if that's the issue, then let's start citing case law and U.S. Code, and the UTMJ, etc.

Not at all - EIT is still abusive, it's still questionable, and it's still the kind of thing you reserve only for the most extreme circumstances. I think where he is spot-on here is on the issues of A) post-9/11 need and B) the risk of bureaucratization and normalization. EIT is still something we would have to morally wrestle with, even without defining torture broadly enough to include it.

EIT.... As I've said, we do need to have an honest discussion about what happened and learn from it. We can't do that by burying our heads in the sand about what we did.

there is a real risk of death from PT, from going to the rifle range, from lifting in the Gym, from driving automobiles, you name it. There is a presence of risk of death in pretty much most of what we do; mitigation of that threat through ensured access to medical personal is just good ORM.

Doing something that is intended to prevent someone from getting oxygen to their brain, induce panic, stop breathing, is fundamentally different than driving a car or shooting on a range - you're not even trying to have an honest conversation now.

For people who can also legitimately be executed out of hand.

Brilliant point. I suppose we should be applauded for 'just' subjecting our detainees to torture.
 
But you only seem to go back to the same guy over and over, then try to represent that there were more. You don't know that, plus its quite dishonest.

Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked Joe...Do you support the current administration using drones?

(1) Yes, now we know that there were more.
(2) No. Killing people with drones may get some of the terrorists, but it just creates more.
 
I agree with most of that. If Obama and Holder are "war criminals", then so were most of their predecessors. I'm not so sure we really want to go there.

But, the fact of the matter is both parties are complicit in these violations of human rights, and the only reason they're coming out now is because of political grandstanding. It's the default position when the (bleep!) hits the fan: Point fingers at the other party.

Again, I agree that there was/is criminality on both sides. Also agree we don't want to go there.

I do think that there should be reasoned debate about whether we continue down this path. There are arguments on both sides. I do not like us using torture or killing people using joysticks to deploy drones. On the other hand I don't want a bomb to go off at a mall in the U.S. These are not easy issues.
 
Hah, yeah, it's amazing that people don't see the difference.

Their thought process appears to be like an Onion headline: "12 Al Qaeda Leaders spared from being waterboarded through the use of Tomahawk Missile"

There are two events you're conflating. That we kill people during war doesn't justify torture as a legitimate interrogation technique because it's preferable or less harmful than killing them, or at least it hasn't justified it in our history. We tried torturers and sentenced them to jail. Should those Japanese charged with war crimes, among others, simply used the defense - "We could have shot them, so torture short of death cannot be a crime."?
 
(1) Yes, now we know that there were more.
(2) No. Killing people with drones may get some of the terrorists, but it just creates more.
1. I haven't seen any credible information that we waterboarded innocent non combatants.

2. So what do we do?
 
Again, I agree that there was/is criminality on both sides. Also agree we don't want to go there.

I do think that there should be reasoned debate about whether we continue down this path. There are arguments on both sides. I do not like us using torture or killing people using joysticks to deploy drones. On the other hand I don't want a bomb to go off at a mall in the U.S. These are not easy issues.

No, they are not easy issues. We're dealing with a determined enemy who thinks we're evil, and wants to kill us. They consider freedom a bad thing, as it allows people to disobey Allah. They're convinced that they'll get a reward in heaven if they die killing the infidel (that's us, as you know) We must protect the homeland from such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, but torturing and making war into a video game isn't the way to do it. That's not who we are, and it only helps the radicals recruit more radicals.
 
Beaudreaux is/was in the Air Force. Think about that for a moment.

He's a liar.
What is that supposed to mean?

Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape
Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) is a program, best known by its military acronym, that provides U.S. military personnel, U.S. Department of Defense civilians, and private military contractors with training in evading capture, survival skills, and the military code of conduct. Established by the U.S. Air Force at the end of the Korean War (1950–53), it was extended during the [[Vietnam <Conflict>]] (1959–1975) to the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Marine Corps. Most higher level SERE students are military aircrew and special operations personnel considered to be at high risk of capture.

The U.S. Air Force SERE School is located at Fairchild AFB, Washington, while SERE Training for the U.S. Army is located at Fort Bragg, North Carolina and at Fort Rucker, Alabama. The Navy and Marine Corps SERE School has known locations at: the U.S. Navy Remote Training Site at Warner Springs, California, the remote Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center (Bridgeport, California), and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery, Maine.​
Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I happened to catch an interview (I think it was CBS) on the world news last night. Scott Pelly was interviewing two admitted CIA torturers.

One guy had never been active CIA, military, or anything else that could be listed as possible requirements for the job. I was thinking: Here come the scapegoats. I guess they must have a written test to discover who the sadists are. I've always thought that it would be odd for a highly credentialed man or woman to be actually getting their hands wet. Those two guys were just scum looking for a great paycheck. It's ****ing laughable.
VICE News Exclusive: The Architect of the CIA's Enhanced Interrogation Program


There was some idiot trying to get his license revoked on mere allegations. :doh iLOL
 
No, they are not easy issues. We're dealing with a determined enemy who thinks we're evil, and wants to kill us. They consider freedom a bad thing, as it allows people to disobey Allah. They're convinced that they'll get a reward in heaven if they die killing the infidel (that's us, as you know) We must protect the homeland from such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, but torturing and making war into a video game isn't the way to do it. That's not who we are, and it only helps the radicals recruit more radicals.
Maybe we can send Franklin Graham over there with some "shoebox gifts" ... that should do the trick right?
 
I've contemplated this for several days before commenting.

While I condemn the CIA for the techniques used, what Dianne Feinstein has done is political posturing as part of a temper tantrum over the party losing the Senate. Her nearly treasonous acts endanger the lives of Americans around the globe and give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Shame of Feinstein and the democrats.
 
1. I haven't seen any credible information that we waterboarded innocent non combatants.

2. So what do we do?

Perhaps not, but there was a lot more to it than waterboarding, and some of the prisoners just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If torture is such an effective technique, perhaps we should start using it in our war on drugs. Capture one gang banger, torture him until he gives up the names of his fellows, then capture and torture them as well. Pretty soon, the drug dealers will all have been captured, tortured, most of them killed, and we'll have won the war on drugs. Does that sound like a good idea?

Oh, and let's employ drones. Find out where the gangs hang out, send a drone to take them out. Sure, there could be a little collateral damage, but what the hey, we'll have wiped out a bunch of scummy gang bangers. If it works for the Middle East, surely it would work in East LA and similar places, right?
 
I've contemplated this for several days before commenting.

While I condemn the CIA for the techniques used, what Dianne Feinstein has done is political posturing as part of a temper tantrum over the party losing the Senate. Her nearly treasonous acts endanger the lives of Americans around the globe and give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Shame of Feinstein and the democrats.

Not sure how you can condemn acts that don't see the light of day, that remain secret.

And the acts that endanger the lives of Americans currently abroad aren't revealing what was done, but the acts that were revealed. Someone posted a video of one of the psychologists - part of it included him blaming the media for revealing that the U.S. waterboarded detainees. That's just 180 degrees wrong. It will get out, so the only question is whether, WHEN it does, the fallout is offset by the benefits.

Bottom line is if something we do or did, and which was sanctioned at the highest levels, cannot be disclosed without endangering American troops and others, that's a great clue that we shouldn't be doing it.
 
Already did. I think this ride is coming back to the starting point again.

No, you didn't. And what you have to address is the fact that they admit they did no study of effectiveness, and that while we did get the information other ways, they can't say whether they needed the torture or not. The fact is, even if the got the little bit they claim, and it is a very little bit, we know we got as much or more misinformation, that we used btw, and that we harmed innocent people. So, no, you have not.
 
Ok, so then you must also have a problem with the drone program under Obama right?

I've said this in many places and repeatedly, yes I do. I think it is wrong. The trouble is I don't run into many defending it, so the conversations are often short.
 
The REAL point is that this report was conceived by, prepared by, funded by and championed by the Democrats on the committee. This was published as a last poke in the eye to President Bush and to keep the attention off the hearings concerning Gruber and the Benghazi cover-up.

Well, he deserves a punch in the eye and charged with crimes against humanity. We both know that won't happen. As for attention, that's just whiny stuff. Anything that happens can be seen that way, and don't you remember bogus terror alerts and distractions under Bush? So, it's neither here nor there concerning anything being a distraction.
 
I could see maybe fighter pilots practicing for capture by the enemy. But not this enemy. There's no one to shoot down a jet.

There are zoomies in places that might surprise you.
 
I hate to tell you liberals, but there is no American outrage over this report, whether it's true or not.

I know these Dems think they've won political points, but much like with Obamacare and amnesty, they've done quite the opposite.
 
Except when they provide a list of examples when it 'worked' they come up empty handed or at best with examples that are ambiguous. The Library Tower and OBL are good examples.



That is a side issue IMO. If we are as a country going to accept torture as a legitimate, sanctioned interrogation tool, the public needs to be informed and buy off on America becoming that kind of country.



No, what that tells me is people exercising vast unchecked powers don't often voluntarily curtail their ability to exercise vast, unchecked powers. Holder is part of the WH, which like all leaders would prefer to operate without meaningful restraints.



They hacked into the committee's computers and attempted to remove files. It's an outrageous act. Sheesh, surely you're not justifying or minimizing the danger of a CIA arrogant enough to target lawmakers are you? That's a very scary situation IMO, and that it didn't immediately result in a dozen heads rolling at CIA is even scarier. What information do they have that protects them from really ANY consequences of that. Must be something big....


You say they haven't proven so.....yet why would all MS Media new sources have stats and info from people and instances on that they were successful. Or how an attempt was thwarted.

Oh and as to Bin Ladens Courier.....note what the CIA says about not ever being able to discover the courier without those EITs.


B4baCjcCIAAzSLw.jpg


2) If you have not done so already, stop what you're doing and read this Wall Street Journal op/ed co written by six former CIA directors and assistant directors. It is devastating to the Feinstein/Democratic report, beginning with the astounding fact that its authors did not speak to anybody at the CIA who carried out or oversaw the 'enhanced interrogation' program. Outrageous:

This fact alone discredits Democrats' final product. This is a shocking, inexcusable "oversight." The remainder of the WSJ piece is devoting to debunking several heavily-reported conclusion the Democrats' report draws: Namely, that enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs) "didn't work," and that the agency serially violated the guidelines set out by its civilian leadership. For a more complete picture of how off-base these determinations are, pick up a copy of Hard Measures by Jose Rodriguez, the former head of the CIA's clandestine service. EIT's absolutely, unequivocally worked to bring high-value, uniquely knowledgeable and evil Al Qaeda leaders into compliance. For all of the table-pounding over 'waterboarding,' this was a tactic employed against three -- total -- detainees, before the practice was ended. (The US military, by the way, routinely waterboards its own people during training exercises). The package of EITs used by the CIA brought about tangible results that saved lives, disrupted plots, and have US officials a far more complete picture of the shadowy network of death that was and is fixated on killing Americans:

3) For the umpteenth time, Democrats who feign outrage over the CIA's tactics willfully ignore the established fact that Congress' bipartisan leadership teams were extensively briefed on EITs, including water boarding. According to several accounts, reactions from lawmakers ranged from registering no objections to asking if the agency needed to go further. Nancy Pelosi's lies on this matter are uniquely disgusting. Based on documented evidence, the CIA briefed at least 68 members of Congress on the programs. Senate Republicans' competing report on EITs, which has received far less media attention, affirms the CIA's contention that their actions after 9/11 spared innocent lives and weakened Al Qaeda.....snip~

Disgrace: Senate Democrats' Flawed, Reckless CIA Interrogation Report - Guy Benson
 
Not sure how you can condemn acts that don't see the light of day, that remain secret.

And the acts that endanger the lives of Americans currently abroad aren't revealing what was done, but the acts that were revealed. Someone posted a video of one of the psychologists - part of it included him blaming the media for revealing that the U.S. waterboarded detainees. That's just 180 degrees wrong. It will get out, so the only question is whether, WHEN it does, the fallout is offset by the benefits.

Bottom line is if something we do or did, and which was sanctioned at the highest levels, cannot be disclosed without endangering American troops and others, that's a great clue that we shouldn't be doing it.

What Feinstein has done is sensationalized the techniques. Just as Eric Holder has acted to incite and intensify race riots in Ferguson, Feinstein and the democrats have acted to incite and intensify anti-American sentiments and actions around the globe.

How long until we have ISIS cutting the head off an American on Youtube, citing Feinstein as justification? I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened already. Feinstein and the democrats are irresponsible, partisan hacks with no concern for the lives of Americans.
 
No, you didn't. And what you have to address is the fact that they admit they did no study of effectiveness, and that while we did get the information other ways, they can't say whether they needed the torture or not. The fact is, even if the got the little bit they claim, and it is a very little bit, we know we got as much or more misinformation, that we used btw, and that we harmed innocent people. So, no, you have not.

It would appear you are unable to recognize the significant subjectivity you are applying to your opinion. That fact can only lead to the failure of your argument. You can't inject numerous "maybe's" in your argument and expect to have you position built on solid ground.
 
I hate to tell you liberals, but there is no American outrage over this report, whether it's true or not.

I know these Dems think they've won political points, but much like with Obamacare and amnesty, they've done quite the opposite.

It wasn't intended to cause outrage among Americans.

The intent of the democrats is to stir up ISIS and Al Qaeda.
 
You say they haven't proven so.....yet why would all MS Media new sources have stats and info from people and instances on that they were successful. Or how an attempt was thwarted.

Oh and as to Bin Ladens Courier.....note what the CIA says about not ever being able to discover the courier without those EITs.

The problem is the CIA has a history of self serving lies, over many years, with regard to the program and its results. So the defense is "The CIA says the CIA got great info from using the waterboard, ergo, we must conclude that the information about the awesomeness of CIA actions verified by CIA is correct!"

2) If you have not done so already, stop what you're doing and read this Wall Street Journal op/ed co written by six former CIA directors and assistant directors. It is devastating to the Feinstein/Democratic report, beginning with the astounding fact that its authors did not speak to anybody at the CIA who carried out or oversaw the 'enhanced interrogation' program. Outrageous:

This fact alone discredits Democrats' final product. This is a shocking, inexcusable "oversight." The remainder of the WSJ piece is devoting to debunking several heavily-reported conclusion the Democrats' report draws: Namely, that enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs) "didn't work," and that the agency serially violated the guidelines set out by its civilian leadership. For a more complete picture of how off-base these determinations are, pick up a copy of Hard Measures by Jose Rodriguez, the former head of the CIA's clandestine service. EIT's absolutely, unequivocally worked to bring high-value, uniquely knowledgeable and evil Al Qaeda leaders into compliance. For all of the table-pounding over 'waterboarding,' this was a tactic employed against three -- total -- detainees, before the practice was ended. (The US military, by the way, routinely waterboards its own people during training exercises). The package of EITs used by the CIA brought about tangible results that saved lives, disrupted plots, and have US officials a far more complete picture of the shadowy network of death that was and is fixated on killing Americans:

That's a good example - there are pictures of a waterboard set up in places where the CIA denies waterboarding took place.

3) For the umpteenth time, Democrats who feign outrage over the CIA's tactics willfully ignore the established fact that Congress' bipartisan leadership teams were extensively briefed on EITs, including water boarding. According to several accounts, reactions from lawmakers ranged from registering no objections to asking if the agency needed to go further. Nancy Pelosi's lies on this matter are uniquely disgusting. Based on documented evidence, the CIA briefed at least 68 members of Congress on the programs. Senate Republicans' competing report on EITs, which has received far less media attention, affirms the CIA's contention that their actions after 9/11 spared innocent lives and weakened Al Qaeda.....snip~

I'm not defending democrats and blaming republicans - I don't think I've mentioned party a single time other than when required to respond.
Disgrace: Senate Democrats' Flawed, Reckless CIA Interrogation Report - Guy Benson[/QUOTE]
 
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