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Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

Personally, I don't believe that waterboarding or sleep deprivation is torture. Pulling fingernails, beatings, breaking bones or causing serious and lasting injury to me would be torture. I suppose it's all a matter of individual bias.

You hit the nail on the head.

For those of us who consider assault to be a crime against the individual, the advantage to the rule of law is that the individual's rights are protected by government.

For those with the authoritarian bent, there is no need for the rule of law. If the president does it, it's not illegal.

I get it.

I condemn those who think that way, but I do get it. I read years ago Zimbardo's book The Lucifer Effect.
 
I didn't see any links. Help me out?

Sure. First, there's the link already given above about a taxi driver named Dhaliwal. Then, there's this poor guy:
4. One detainee died, apparently from hypothermia, after being chained, nearly naked, to a concrete floor
A glimpse of these techniques details how the CIA employed sleep deprivation to wear down victims: It "involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours, usually standing or in stress positions, at times with their hands shackled above their heads."

Sharpened interrogation just isn't a morally acceptable option for a democracy t hat values human rights.

link
 
Sure. First, there's the link already given above about a taxi driver named Dhaliwal. Then, there's this poor guy:


Sharpened interrogation just isn't a morally acceptable option for a democracy t hat values human rights.

link

One guy? That's all?

These prisoners are illegal combatants. Some of them probably fit the definition of a mercenary. They don't rate protection under the GC, nor The Constitution. Democracy was protected, not endangered.
 
What I said originally was that our objective is to eradicate the cockroaches, not to become cockroaches.
Furthermore, a better case could be made for torture to have helped to convince more Muslims to radicalize than one that torture actually helped to save lives.

And just what in the hell do you think the release of this biased report does? It'll be used as a recruiting tool for some time to come.
 
Sure. First, there's the link already given above about a taxi driver named Dhaliwal. Then, there's this poor guy:


Sharpened interrogation just isn't a morally acceptable option for a democracy t hat values human rights.

link

So CNN regurgitates misinformation, and parrots the report and you lap it up as independent corroboration? You're embarrassing yourself Ditto.
 
So CNN regurgitates misinformation, and parrots the report and you lap it up as independent corroboration? You're embarrassing yourself Ditto.

You not wanting to believe it doesn't make it false. In fact, no one defending the CIA says it's false, only that it's not "torture", or that the tor.. I mean sharpened interrogation can be justified in a sort of the end justifies the means sort of way.

You can call a turd a cupcake if you want. It is what it is.
 
And just what in the hell do you think the release of this biased report does? It'll be used as a recruiting tool for some time to come.

The terrorists already know that torture happened. So does anyone who has been paying attention and didn't swallow the "United States does not torture" statement made by one POTUS or the "torture ended" statement made by another.
 
You not wanting to believe it doesn't make it false. In fact, no one defending the CIA says it's false, only that it's not "torture", or that the tor.. I mean sharpened interrogation can be justified in a sort of the end justifies the means sort of way.

You can call a turd a cupcake if you want. It is what it is.

So, why did you try to trot out a dishonest CNN article like you did? And if you are lapping up that report from Feinsten's aids, then you should be smart enough to know that Feinstein was briefed many times while it was ongoing and said or did NOTHING to stop it...In fact reports were that she egged it on, just like Pelosi, and Rockefeller....So...What do you call that? I call it highly dishonest.
 
The terrorists already know that torture happened. So does anyone who has been paying attention and didn't swallow the "United States does not torture" statement made by one POTUS or the "torture ended" statement made by another.

Oh, so you believe it is ongoing today?
 
Charles P Pierce has a few words to say to the defenders of torture

All The Right People: The Contagious Exercise Of State Violence - Esquire

Somewhere in itself, and not very far from the surface, either, this country has gone mad with fear and rage. As a result, it is finding sustenance in the acts of official violence, and doing so in more different ways than the republic has seen since we had lynching, union busting, and Red Scares at the same time, back when the 19th century was turning into the 20th. Anyone who can't see the political and sociological tissue connecting the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner, and the revelations of a decade's worth of CIA brutality, and the execution of Robert Holsey isn't looking hard enough. In the country's untrammeled fear and rage, it is exercising the only function of self-government it can recall as its mad brain turns to red fire -- to encourage the exercise of the state's power to wound and kill all the right people. In this madness, race and class are mere diagnostic categories. In this madness, the politics of right and left, of Republicans and Democrats, of conservatives and liberals, of red and blue, are pathetically inadequate to assess the situation. In this madness, the choices are not made within the easy and obvious contexts. This is a choice between barbarism and not, between savagery and not. This is a choice between the national soul and the national Id. This is a choice of whether to take inchoate and weaponized vengeance against the living representations of the monsters in our paranoid dreams. That's the last vestige of self-government that we have allowed ourselves. The right to demand that the institutions of government kill what we fear. By any means necessary, as someone once said.
 
I do wonder if some folks aren't at least starting to fear the consequences of what they did. Although I'm not sure the "He did it first" excuse works any better in the International Criminal Court than it did in kindergarten

Cheney Throws Bush Under The Bus On Torture Program

Dick Cheney discussed the newly released Senate torture report Wednesday on Fox News, and in particular challenged a finding that former President George W. Bush hadn't been briefed on the CIA's harsh interrogation methods until years after they'd already been in use.

Fox News anchor Bret Baier asked the former vice president whether the agency deliberately kept Bush in the dark about its so-called enhanced interrogation techniques.

"Not true. Didn't happen," Cheney responded. "Read his book, he talks about it extensively in his memoirs. He was in fact an integral part of the program, he had to approve it before we went forward with it."

Then we get a typical non-answer answer to the question posed

Asked if there was ever a point where he knew more about the CIA's activity than the President, Cheney said "I think he knew everything he needed to know and wanted to know about the program."
 
Ah yes, All things that the US is, or does is evil, and only collectivism can save us.

Succinctly stated - THE problem we face in America today - "You're with us or you're against us" with zero acknowledgement of complexity

Some people see only the negative in their opponents' speech, some people seem to only be able to accept the "all or nothing" premise in politics. They see criticism of one favoured action as being criticism of everything.

" In this madness, the choices are not made within the easy and obvious contexts. This is a choice between barbarism and not, between savagery and not. "
 
Succinctly stated - THE problem we face in America today - "You're with us or you're against us" with zero acknowledgement of complexity

Complexity as you state it here is only a means to stalemate...I assure you our enemies don't share your view of fighting for a draw.

Some people see only the negative in their opponents' speech, some people seem to only be able to accept the "all or nothing" premise in politics. They see criticism of one favoured action as being criticism of everything.

Socialism is not the "favored action" in America, and never will be...That is only your own pipe dream.

" In this madness, the choices are not made within the easy and obvious contexts. This is a choice between barbarism and not, between savagery and not. "

So why should Charles P Peirce, a frequent guest on the far left Stephanie Miller show, speak to me? I understand you think he is spot on because he and you are like minded socialists...Doesn't change the fact that America is not now, nor will it become a communist country.
 
I don't support other countries charging our CIA staff for anything, sorry.

Will it be a good thing when they charge Barack Obama for his drone attacks that are killing children, too?

I'm sure such a report will come forward in time. History will tell how deadly and perhaps non-surgical U.S. drone strikes were. In the mean time, let's not try to deflect.
 
So, why did you try to trot out a dishonest CNN article like you did? And if you are lapping up that report from Feinsten's aids, then you should be smart enough to know that Feinstein was briefed many times while it was ongoing and said or did NOTHING to stop it...In fact reports were that she egged it on, just like Pelosi, and Rockefeller....So...What do you call that? I call it highly dishonest.


The CNN article was not dishonest, nor was the report on torture. If you want to cast blame on the Democrats, go ahead. I won't argue with you there.

The main thing is to acknowledge what really happened so that history won't repeat itself.
 
Oh, so you believe it is ongoing today?

I don't know. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that it is.

Of course, Obama said that it ended, but then, Bush said that the US doesn't torture. Do you believe either one of them?
 
The CNN article was not dishonest, nor was the report on torture. If you want to cast blame on the Democrats, go ahead. I won't argue with you there.

The main thing is to acknowledge what really happened so that history won't repeat itself.


The "183 times" quote was but one inaccuracy...The entire op-ed attempt at journalism is just proof that we don't have an objective press, and people like you buy into the propaganda.
 
I don't know. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that it is.

Of course, Obama said that it ended, but then, Bush said that the US doesn't torture. Do you believe either one of them?

Yeah, yeah....Sure...:screwy:
 
The "183 times" quote was but one inaccuracy...The entire op-ed attempt at journalism is just proof that we don't have an objective press, and people like you buy into the propaganda.

There is no one else like me. I'm one of a kind.
and, people like you, if there are any others, won't believe plain facts when they've been presented.
 
There is no one else like me. I'm one of a kind.

On that I would agree old friend...:mrgreen:

and, people like you, if there are any others, won't believe plain facts when they've been presented.

When we start talking facts, and not ridiculous exaggerations like "183 times" as though they are fact then we can talk....So, tell me Ditto, what's new in this "report"? Nothing as far as I can see.
 
On that I would agree old friend...:mrgreen:



When we start talking facts, and not ridiculous exaggerations like "183 times" as though they are fact then we can talk....So, tell me Ditto, what's new in this "report"? Nothing as far as I can see.
So, how many times do you believe people have been tortured?

Is 175 too many? How about 150?

Does it matter that the government lied to us about it?
 
So, how many times do you believe people have been tortured?

Is 175 too many? How about 150?

Does it matter that the government lied to us about it?

As per the report I posted earlier KSM was waterboarded in 5 sessions. The only reason to break down each one of those sessions and count every single instance that water was poured within that session is to demonize the interrogators, and blow up what really went on in the wake of 9/11. Especially now, this far out from that time, where people forget the emotion of losing 3,000 people, and the fear that everyone felt in the days after.

As someone already pointed out either here, or in another of the rehash threads, we as American's bitched that the CIA didn't catch this attack, then when WE turned them loose to make sure that it never happened again, WE bitch that they went too far...So your making sure that we never get the type of intel that has kept America from another mass attack, and helped in locating, and killing OBL...That's just great....So, the next attack, the blood is on liberal panty waste's hands.
 
On that I would agree old friend...:mrgreen:



When we start talking facts, and not ridiculous exaggerations like "183 times" as though they are fact then we can talk....So, tell me Ditto, what's new in this "report"? Nothing as far as I can see.

All the report does is "make it official" that the US government tortured. Like Obama noted a few years back, "we tortured some folks".

It is some measure of vindication for those like me, frequently described by others as "tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists". That is, it shows that the conspiracies were not imaginary, but very real.

Given Abu Ghraib and human conditions, understanding it was happening was not exactly rocket science, but it is nice that the government would "officially" acknowledge what we were talking about.
 
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