• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Factory orders fall for third straight month

ocean515 said:
So why do for profit colleges exist? Why would a student go there rather than a taxpayer subsidized community college at a fraction of the cost?
Click to expand...
As far as I can tell, they exist to defraud veterans via GI bills.

NA-CC151_EDUVET_G_20140731185104.jpg
 
ocean515 said:
Well, it's obvious a high level of bias is at play here, so I think I'll just leave you to it. :peace
Click to expand...
LOL. I actually was coming back to consider toning that down.

Making profits by giving substandard education to people who risk their lives for this country and making taxpayers pay for it bothers me. For profit colleges seem like the education equivalent of payday loans.
 
Unrepresented said:
LOL. I actually was coming back to consider toning that down.

Making profits by giving substandard education to people who risk their lives for this country and making taxpayers pay for it bothers me. For profit colleges seem like the education equivalent of payday loans.
Click to expand...

A degree from a fully accredited for profit school can hardly be called sub-standard. Perhaps you should look a little deeper into what the majority of these schools are doing before closing your mind to them.

What disturbs me more, is the willingness to loan people money who in most cases have no credit history, on a dream about the future they may not come close to having, and then making it impossible to get out from under. Dangling a carrot, and then feeding them a poison apple is criminal in my view.
 
ocean515 said:
A degree from a fully accredited for profit school can hardly be called sub-standard. Perhaps you should look a little deeper into what the majority of these schools are doing before closing your mind to them.

What disturbs me more, is the willingness to loan people money who in most cases have no credit history, on a dream about the future they may not come close to having, and then making it impossible to get out from under. Dangling a carrot, and then feeding them a poison apple is criminal in my view.
Click to expand...
The wall street journal reports that they're of little value to employees wishing to get hired.

"How do employers really view graduates of for-profit colleges like the University of Phoenix and ITT Education?
No better—or worse—than they view people who received the same qualifications from community colleges, according to*a new working paper*from the National Center for Analysis of Longitudinal Data in Education Research. And listing an associate’s degree or certificate from a for-profit college gives a young candidate no great boost over someone who skipped college entirely."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-ATWORKB-1995

Admittedly, it's not a four year degree, but it's a reference point to extrapolate on.
 
Unrepresented said:
The wall street journal reports that they're of little value to employees wishing to get hired.

"How do employers really view graduates of for-profit colleges like the University of Phoenix and ITT Education?
No better—or worse—than they view people who received the same qualifications from community colleges, according to*a new working paper*from the National Center for Analysis of Longitudinal Data in Education Research. And listing an associate’s degree or certificate from a for-profit college gives a young candidate no great boost over someone who skipped college entirely."

For-Profit College Degrees Don

Admittedly, it's not a four year degree, but it's a reference point to extrapolate on.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be too dismissive, but this paragraph in the WSJ article causes me to question the point they are trying to push.

While the paper does not measure full hiring outcomes for graduates of for-profit and community colleges, it does track employers’ initial indications of interest in applicants, a loose proxy for individuals’ potential to be hired at some point.​

The paper does not measure full hiring outcomes? Initial indications?

I think there is much more to the decision process a student uses to attend a for profit school. I would consider a study valid if it approached an analysis of benefit while taking these variables into account. Available classes, specific areas of learning not offered at community colleges, and a host of other reasons are not addressed. For example, a student may be interested in an I.T. career, but the local community college only offers the class at certain times, or does not have the seat space to accommodate the demand. These are legitimate and real life considerations.

Further, as I mentioned before, there are students who couldn't qualify to enter community colleges due to their basic skills requirements in areas of knowledge that a student may have no interest in. History? A student seeking skills in electrics may have no interest at all in investing time to take such a class.

I do think student loans are far too easy to obtain, whether going to a for profit or not. I think it's a scam, and as I written before, should be eliminated but for specific degrees where there is substantial need.
 
Unrepresented said:
"Universities" is the plural of university -- "Universities function to educate us on proper usage of the English language."

"University's" is possessive -- "It's the University's function to educate us on proper usage of the English language."

I learned this before I attended a university.
Click to expand...


I am of the opinion that "use", not "usage", would be the correct word choice there.
 
ocean515 said:
I'm not trying to be too dismissive, but this paragraph in the WSJ article causes me to question the point they are trying to push.

While the paper does not measure full hiring outcomes for graduates of for-profit and community colleges, it does track employers’ initial indications of interest in applicants, a loose proxy for individuals’ potential to be hired at some point.​

The paper does not measure full hiring outcomes? Initial indications?

I think there is much more to the decision process a student uses to attend a for profit school. I would consider a study valid if it approached an analysis of benefit while taking these variables into account. Available classes, specific areas of learning not offered at community colleges, and a host of other reasons are not addressed. For example, a student may be interested in an I.T. career, but the local community college only offers the class at certain times, or does not have the seat space to accommodate the demand. These are legitimate and real life considerations.

Further, as I mentioned before, there are students who couldn't qualify to enter community colleges due to their basic skills requirements in areas of knowledge that a student may have no interest in. History? A student seeking skills in electrics may have no interest at all in investing time to take such a class.

I do think student loans are far too easy to obtain, whether going to a for profit or not. I think it's a scam, and as I written before, should be eliminated but for specific degrees where there is substantial need.
Click to expand...

I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
 
Unrepresented said:
I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
Click to expand...

Some might benefit more than others, but that is true of many schools. I believe that access to easy student loans is the reason all colleges and universities are largely unchecked when it comes to their decision-making. If you have a shopping mall and 6 Olympic sized swimming pools on campus and people are struggling to work and pay tuition, then maybe you have forgotten your primary mission.
 
Unrepresented said:
I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
Click to expand...

Again, you have to consider the reason a student would turn to a for profit school, over a far less costly community college. Why do you think this influencing factor appears to be absent in studies like the one you posted?
 
ocean515 said:
Again, you have to consider the reason a student would turn to a for profit school, over a far less costly community college. Why do you think this influencing factor appears to be absent in studies like the one you posted?
Click to expand...

Marketing and recruiters.

Community college budgets don't include a large portion dedicated to headhunting clients.
 
DA60 said:
'(Reuters) - New orders for U.S. factory goods fell for a third straight month in October, pointing to a slowdown in manufacturing activity.

The Commerce Department said on Friday new orders for manufactured goods declined 0.7 percent after a revised 0.5 percent drop in September.'

U.S. factory orders fall for third straight month | Reuters


Well......there is always Walmart jobs.
Click to expand...

How could this be, unemployment is down to virtually nothing? All factories should be running full steam ahead! Maybe all this news about recovery is just a big lie.
 
Unrepresented said:
Marketing and recruiters.

Community college budgets don't include a large portion dedicated to headhunting clients.
Click to expand...

Indeed true. Not needed. At least here in Southern California, it's very difficult to get a single class. One of many explanations for the increase in for profit colleges.
 
ocean515 said:
Indeed true. Not needed. At least here in Southern California, it's very difficult to get a single class. One of many explanations for the increase in for profit colleges.
Click to expand...

It's a vicious cycle. The more demand shifts away from community colleges, the less funding can be justified to address the concerns (class availability, campus convenience, certificates and programs offered).
 
Well they fell because they are buying from us Canadians because our dollar has taken a very big hit and will only get worse as oil prices fall. On the upside it has been very beneficial to the Canadian economy.
 
Unrepresented said:
It's a vicious cycle. The more demand shifts away from community colleges, the less funding can be justified to address the concerns (class availability, campus convenience, certificates and programs offered).
Click to expand...

Funding has been significant. When the waiting lines for classes is as large as it is, and tuition has increased dramatically, it's hard to argue funding is a problem.
 
ocean515 said:
Funding has been significant. When the waiting lines for classes is as large as it is, and tuition has increased dramatically, it's hard to argue funding is a problem.
Click to expand...

Tuition has increased dramatically (something that I'm again opposed to) but not funding, especially in contrast to the demand. The higher tuition was used to subsidize lowered general fund spending on education, not to enhance it.

GR_120524_publicuniversityfunds.jpg


This is an issue with state funding for education, which needed to be remedied and returned to historical levels, especially in California:

CPBB_Tution_Inflation_Adjusted.jpg


Even so, the cost for the CCC is still a much better value for students than the For Profit equivalent:

original.jpg
 
Unrepresented said:
Tuition has increased dramatically (something that I'm again opposed to) but not funding, especially in contrast to the demand. The higher tuition was used to subsidize lowered general fund spending on education, not to enhance it.

GR_120524_publicuniversityfunds.jpg


This is an issue with state funding for education, which needed to be remedied and returned to historical levels, especially in California:

CPBB_Tution_Inflation_Adjusted.jpg


Even so, the cost for the CCC is still a much better value for students than the For Profit equivalent:

original.jpg
Click to expand...

No question publicly subsidized colleges and universities offer a better value than a for profit alternative. At the same time, this push by various groups to denigrate for profit alternatives is rather interesting. When it's obvious the greater problem of debt and default is found in students attending public schools, the argument regarding the low handing fruit makes no sense.

So if you know, what is the real reason for the push against for profits. The debt/default approach has no validity.
 
ocean515 said:
No question publicly subsidized colleges and universities offer a better value than a for profit alternative. At the same time, this push by various groups to denigrate for profit alternatives is rather interesting. When it's obvious the greater problem of debt and default is found in students attending public schools, the argument regarding the low handing fruit makes no sense.

So if you know, what is the real reason for the push against for profits. The debt/default approach has no validity.
Click to expand...

We seem to be interpreting the data differently.
 
Unrepresented said:
We seem to be interpreting the data differently.
Click to expand...

It would seem so. That is why I asked the question. Seems there are lots of graphs and data designed to make for profit trade/college institutions look bad. I am wondering who is behind the push.
 
ocean515 said:
It would seem so. That is why I asked the question. Seems there are lots of graphs and data designed to make for profit trade/college institutions look bad. I am wondering who is behind the push.
Click to expand...

I started following the issue because of a local alternative weekly a few years ago. Their political columnist was following the local scandals of for profits (threats of losing accreditation, recruiters and commissions being prioritized over classroom, etc.). I don't know if it ties into a larger narrative or was simply because we have a few based locally.

Here's a link to one of his articles on the subject:

http://m.sandiegoreader.com/news/20...it-college-recruit-homeless/?templates=mobile
 
Unrepresented said:
I started following the issue because of a local alternative weekly a few years ago. Their political columnist was following the local scandals of for profits (threats of losing accreditation, recruiters and commissions being prioritized over classroom, etc.). I don't know if it ties into a larger narrative or was simply because we have a few based locally.

Here's a link to one of his articles on the subject:

For-profit college tried to recruit homeless | San Diego Reader
Click to expand...

An interesting read. I have no doubt there are some for profits that fall short of providing the education they advertise. I also have no doubt the easy money available for student loans draws unscrupulous characters into the field looking to take advantage of people who are too naïve to understand what they are getting in to.

A far more serious problem, with similar characteristics, can be found in public institutions supported by taxpayer dollars. Add in the growing trend towards on-line classes, and the opportunity to soak students for student loan dollars, while providing little educational benefit, increases dramatically.

At least we can agree reform is imperative in both areas. The "who first" will have to remain debatable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom