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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Mithros said:
Who's Eric Brown?
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Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.

And again, it doesn't make a lick of difference what or if Garner "ranted" anything. The police don't get to kill you if you yell at them. And I don't care what happened during your so called "missing part"
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I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.

All I know is what I saw from the time police laid hands on Garner until he died. That was clearly excessive force and zero justification. And yes, i'm very much in a position to know what I'm talking about.

I've spent years doing MMA. I've choked people out before and been choked out myself. I have a pretty good idea of how much force we're talking about and how much force you can apply... It's A LOT, like you feel like your head is going to be detached from you spine, like enough to burst blood vessels in your nose so that blood gushes down your throat kind of a lot. (it's a slightly violent sport :) )
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Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?

So I kind of know what I'm talking about regarding personal combat. Choke holds aren't supposed to suffocate. It takes too much time and force. In fact, it's virtually impossible to suffocate someone with a choke single handedly if they're fighting back. Cut off blood and the person is out in a few seconds, suffocation takes minutes. From the time the officers first laid hands on him, Garner did NOTHING in any way shape or form to resist arrest. Nothing. He's laying on the ground clearly whimpering that he can't breathe. Do you have any idea how much self control it takes to be in that kind of situation and NOT panic and flail? Hint: it's an ungodly amount. Don't believe me, crawl under your car so that you can't move and then hold your breath until the panic sets in. Not being able to breathe + Not being able to move = mind blowing levels of panic.
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I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.

And yet look at the cops position. If I had been another cop at the scene I would have decked the guy that was choking him. His body position and actions do not contribute to "subduing" (as if it was needed) Gardner. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
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I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Mithros said:
*Facepalm*

Do you think the cop used some super secret 5th level cop ninja choke that we don't know about?
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Yeah, clownboy, do you even lift, bro?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
He was let go. had he held it, it could easily kill him, I am not sure why you are taking this tact but it doesn't help you here.
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And the choke hold on Garner was held how long, again?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Yeah, clownboy, do you even lift, bra?
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Not since the 80s when I was trying to impress the women in my life. Since I managed to lead a non-criminal lifestyle and stay out of prison there has been no need since. I think I probably could lift a bra. :mrgreen:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Not since the 80s when I was trying to impress the women in my life. Since I managed to lead a non-criminal lifestyle and stay out of prison there has been no need since. I think I probably could lift a bra. :mrgreen:
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I console myself with the knowledge that I lift more off the couch every time I go to the kitchen than most people my age lift in a day!
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
I'm not disputing garner was the biggest contributer to his death.


My point is, we in this country shouldn't be putting citizens in choke holds over suspicion of selling loose cigarettes.


Diplomacy would have been the quiver I would have chosen over my bad ass choke holds. ;)
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They didnt put him in a choke hold over suspicion of selling cigarettes. They attempted to detain him and he pushed the police officers away. Diplomacy is wonderful. Effective with many people. Maybe even with him. But they chose to detain him and he resisted and as a result he ended up having a heart attack and dying. Tragic.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
I console myself with the knowledge that I lift more off the couch every time I go to the kitchen than most people my age lift in a day!
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No kidding, lifting is one of the things we have grandchildren for.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.



I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.



Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?



I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.



I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
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Yes, the amount of force could have killed a sparing partner. You don't leave a choke after someone goes limp unless you're trying to kill them.

Also, Garner wasn't killed by anything that happened on his feet. He could still breathe when he hit the ground, you can't say that you can't breathe unless you can breath just a little bit.... Think about what that means for his suffocation....

And you're right, MMA is not like police work. The people who do it are FAR more experienced and dangerous. Fighting is not something that anyone is naturally good at. It takes a ton of training to learn to suppress the natural responses which tend toward compliance and submission. Like... i know this hurts now but I can beat it if I fight back....And it's actually much easier to subdue someone than to make someone tap out, especially when you have backup.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.



I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.



Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?



I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.



I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
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why are they required to force the guy to lay on the ground like a dog. All they really need to do is get the arms cuffed. No matter how long that takes. If someone is using lethal force against a cop thats another matter.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
why are they required to force the guy to lay on the ground like a dog. All they really need to do is get the arms cuffed. No matter how long that takes. If someone is using lethal force against a cop thats another matter.
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They tried to cuff him standing, that's when he pulled away and started to resist. The longer the struggle goes on the greater the3 likelihood that someone will get hurt. Quicker is better in a takedown (not talking MMA boys).
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Grant said:
So choke-holds are legal but against NYPD policy. Would that be right? (I'm still on my first coffee!)

Thanks, and a very Happy Friday to you and yours as well!
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They're definitely against NYPD policy but unless someone can find it, there isn't a law on the books that says it's illegal for a police officer to use a chokehold.

Coffee rocks.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
They're definitely against NYPD policy but unless someone can find it, there isn't a law on the books that says it's illegal for a police officer to use a chokehold.

Coffee rocks.
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Or anyone for that matter. Otherwise the MMA guys would be done.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
"neck and chest compression" is NOT a cause of death, any more so than the oft repeated foolishness about 'homicide' being the cause of death.
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Then what was? Certainly not you 8,300 hamburgers.

The ME listed neck and chest compression as the primary causes of the death. I'm not a doctor but that seems pretty plainly to put most of the cause of his death on those two things and not his medical history.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
"Orchestrated and trained" BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

The choke is on wrong.

He doesn't have his hooks in.


If garner had a clue he could make weight, turn into officer choke hold, given the lack of hooks, get side control, and put him in a world of hurt.

Officer choke hold is one of those dangers of "knowing a little" about something.



Choke holds are banned by nypd.

What he attempted was a choke.
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Hell the incorrect choke probably contributed to death. Because if Garner had any weakness of heart at all from being fat this imporper choke could have possible created even more pressure problems. The way the choke is done the majority of the constriction is on the left side of the neck. The right probably isnt even affected much. This means only the intake to the brain was restricted yet the brain blood could still drain because the right side wasnt. Meaning each pump of the heart put more blood into the heart yet would be constricted and clogged right after the outtake (the veins on the left side of your neck). Basically making it so the biggest amount of blood pressure happened. At least if he would have choked off both sides some of the blood would have remained settled in his brain.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Hell the incorrect choke probably contributed to death. Because if Garner had any weakness of heart at all from being fat this imporper choke could have possible created even more pressure problems. The way the choke is done the majority of the constriction is on the left side of the neck. The right probably isnt even affected much. This means only the intake to the brain was restricted yet the brain blood could still drain because the right side wasnt. Meaning each pump of the heart put more blood into the heart yet would be constricted and clogged right after the outtake (the veins on the left side of your neck). Basically making it so the biggest amount of blood pressure happened. At least if he would have choked off both sides some of the blood would have remained settled in his brain.
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Personally I think that having five guys dogpiled on his back pressing him against the pavement trying to cuff him is probably what caused the last pin to fall.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

vesper said:
To make it even more insane. This is Chief of Police Phillip Banks III. He is the one that issued the order to crackdown on the sale of loosies.
032913chiefbanksinterviewpm110952-300x450.jpg


Banks gets his marching orders from the Police commissioner William J. Bratton, who was appointed by Mayor Bill de Blasio and took office on January 1, 2014.

Bratton gets his marching orders from Mayor de Blasio.

deblasio_sharpton.jpg


de Blasio threw his police department under the bus, and implied they were untrustworthy and racist. After his divisive speech. Obama personally called and thanked him.


Police fury at mayor’s racial smear | New York Post
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The Police Commissioner is furious with de Blasio right now - as he should be.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Captain America said:
Me too. I stood behind the Ferguson cop. Still do. But this NYPD fiasco on video, that cop is a punk trying to be Billy Bad-Ass Top Cop. That chicken**** little mother****er snuck up behind the big black dude and killed that guy. Maybe it is time for a good ol' "peaceful," American revolution against these oppressive alpha-assholes. At least a serious protest. They need to be shown just how "Billy-Bad-Ass," they REALLY are. Encircle them with a million protesters and they would **** their pants.
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Thanks, but I'd rather not see a million protestors encircling the cops right now. I'd like to know if I called 911 because I was alone in the house with someone intent on doing me bodily harm and I was nowhere near my husband's gun collection that there would be someone there to help me.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Or anyone for that matter. Otherwise the MMA guys would be done.
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thats idiotic. Just because mma people agree to clobber eachother in the face for money doesnt mean that someone with volunteer authority can beat someone in the face until they die.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Mithros said:
Uhhh.. that just means that the officer was actively choking him until his death.
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Right, and Michael Brown was surrendering with his hands in the air.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius46 said:
Then what was? Certainly not you 8,300 hamburgers.

The ME listed neck and chest compression as the primary causes of the death. I'm not a doctor but that seems pretty plainly to put most of the cause of his death on those two things and not his medical history.
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Neck compression implies he was choked to death. He wasnt. Chest compression implies someone impaired heart or lung function that killed him. It didnt happen. His heart was beating and he was breathing when they put him in the ambulance. An educated guess would be that he wasstill experiencing a heart attack at the time and that is what eventually killed him. A heart attack because he was morbidly obese, had an enlarged heart and organs, and his body failed him. It will be good for them to actually release the ME report.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Who Is Daniel Pantaleo? NYPD Officer Who Killed Eric Garner Was Accused Of Misconduct Before Chokehold Death



This just gets better and better. There are 5-6 posters who have tried so hard to make these cops look justified because of those 31 priors and yet here we have a cop who gets off by getting on other people. He has two lawsuits people, not for selling cigarettes, he has them for abusing suspects. He settled one, and in the other his actions are correlated to the dismissal of charges. Lmao, this is the righteous cop people are rallying behind?
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So he put the chokehold on Garner...because Garner was black?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

tres borrachos said:
Thanks, but I'd rather not see a million protestors encircling the cops right now. I'd like to know if I called 911 because I was alone in the house with someone intent on doing me bodily harm and I was nowhere near my husband's gun collection that there would be someone there to help me.
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
thats idiotic. Just because mma people agree to clobber eachother in the face for money doesnt mean that someone with volunteer authority can beat someone in the face until they die.
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You misunderstood by a country mile. I was saying it is not against the law for ANYONE to do a choke hold. Try reading the post I was responding to.
 
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