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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
According to the autopsy, Garner died of compression to the neck, compressions to his chest, and being held prone by the officers caused his death.

That's why the coroner's office ruled it a homicide, and it went before a grand jury.
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You lie through omission. You conveniently left out his asthma, his diabetes and his advanced heart disease.

In the end, Gardener was amazing frail and literally near death and his 6'3" 360LB frame gave the exact opposite impression. It was that false impression that led to the officer's choices on how to detain Gardener. Had he been a relatively healthy then a combative 6'3" 360LB Gardener would probably be more than the officers could handle.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Henrin said:
Where is this guy with a red shirt? If he saw this guy in a red where in the hell is he? The best the officer was able to do was say he saw this guy that apparently exists, which honestly isn't enough.
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It's also quite interesting that the cops waited until there was a fight for Garner to disrupt before they approached him regarding the sale of loose cigarettes.

I guess that's just one of those happy coincidences.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

roguenuke said:
Don't know, but not relevant to whether or not he was or should have been told he was under arrest except it shows that the cop who mentioned him was giving his reasoning for either detaining or arresting him.
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Well, that's my point. The cops claims are entirely left unsupported even if the cops should be able to find this red shirted fellow that apparently bought untaxed cigarettes, and yet, that red shirted individual is no where to be found. Telling.

As for your point, I don't happen to agree with them being able to arrest people without informing them.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
It's not solely because he died in police custody. It's because the way they restrained him, when he wasn't being in any way violent, both violated NYPD policy and caused his death.

In addition, while keeping in mind that none of us have seen the testimony or evidence presented to the grand jury, it's stunning that the prosecutor was unable to secure an indictment.

I certainly see why people are upset that the indictment was declined.
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Care to explain that bolded statement? Absent the evidence how can you be so sure he should have gotten an indictment? You seem to on one hand except that the GJ had more information than you have when they made their decision and yet you seem confident that your admittedly ignorant opinion should have been their opinion to.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
You lie through omission. You conveniently left out his asthma, his diabetes and his advanced heart disease.

In the end, Gardener was amazing frail and literally near death and his 6'3" 360LB frame gave the exact opposite impression. It was that false impression that led to the officer's choices on how to detain Gardener. Had he been a relatively healthy then a combative 6'3" 360LB Gardener would probably be more than the officers could handle.
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How the holy-hell is ANY of this relevant to the fact that the officer's chokehold and subsequent police dogpile led to Garner's death? I don't care if he's standing with one foot in the grave, their actions pushed him over the edge and killed him.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It appears clear at this point that he was never told he was being placed under arrest - though it claimed somehow he was resisting arrest anyway.

Apparently, if you resist being assaulted by police it is "resisting arrest." "Assault" and "Arrest" thus mean the same thing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
What I object to is the defacto claim that it was criminal behavior because Gardener died. The number of contributing physical ailments that made a 6'3" 360 man so amazingly frail could not have been known by the arresting officers.
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Very true.

Garnder was a "perferct storm" of physical problems that could (and did) cascade downward if he was placed under an even a moderate amount of physical and emotional stress. As such, he was the last guy who needed to "go MMA" with the police.

Tettsuo said:
How the holy-hell is ANY of this relevant to the fact that the officer's chokehold and subsequent police dogpile led to Garner's death? I don't care if he's standing with one foot in the grave, their actions pushed him over the edge and killed him.
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If the arrest was lawful, then the physical force used to bring him to the ground was not unreasonable. While the choke hold may have been an administrative violation, it was not criminal.

In short, it was Garnder's responsibility to consider his true physical condition before the tussle, not the police's.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
He wasn't pulled over for DUI, was he?:roll:

Would it be fair to say that it is your opinion those who fought in the American Revolutionary War were perfectly evil and should have been killed for "resisting?"
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Have you figured out yet that you still think the guy applying the "chockhold" is the same guy holding his head down and that in fact what you described was completely and utterly wrong in every way imaginable?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
You are absolutely ridiculous. Saying someone's health issues are caused by bad diet choices IS NOT an endorsement of Government Nanny State eating regulations. Mr. Gradener should be allowed to eat all the unhealthy crap he wants, but he also lived, and died with the consequences.



I think the court ruled correctly. Are you now going to try and equate the denial of insulin for several days with a 13 second choke hold? Please do, I haven't laughed enough today.
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Wanted to see where you are on the wingnut scale..some folks think it is certainly OK to abuse people in jail.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
It appears clear at this point that he was never told he was being placed under arrest - though it claimed somehow he was resisting arrest anyway.

Apparently, if you resist being assaulted by police it is "resisting arrest." "Assault" and "Arrest" thus mean the same thing.
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You're forgetting the fact that all citizens must automatically submit to the power of the police regardless of their rights... as per the police apologist.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
How would you have handled it? Be specific.

What different laws?
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Give him a ticket.

And, not kill him.

Seems simple.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Ikari said:
If a guy gets pulled over for a DUI, I'd prefer if the cops didn't just kill him.
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Thats that "I know the answer is gonna suck so I'm not going to answer it" answer.

The cops didnt 'kill him'. He resisted arrest, they arrested him, and because he resisted arrest, his morbidly obese body gave out on him.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

AliHajiSheik said:
As I understand it, the police were enforcing the civil tax law because these were untaxed cigarettes he was selling. I'm guessing NYC would have saved a lot of money by just letting him sell his cigarettes.
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Power is more important than money.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Henrin said:
Well, that's my point. The cops claims are entirely left unsupported even if the cops should be able to find this red shirted fellow that apparently bought untaxed cigarettes, and yet, that red shirted individual is no where to be found. Telling.

As for your point, I don't happen to agree with them being able to arrest people without informing them.
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Which is dealt with after the person is taken into custody. Right or wrong, if the police came to my door claiming I had killed someone and they put me under arrest for it, I shouldn't resist even if I know they are wrong. Especially if they have some evidence that could have been used against me that shows probable cause that is later found to be wrong. The reason is because police are given the benefit of the doubt. The trial is where the accused gets the benefit of the doubt, not during the arrest.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Tettsuo said:
How the holy-hell is ANY of this relevant to the fact that the officer's chokehold and subsequent police dogpile led to Garner's death? I don't care if he's standing with one foot in the grave, their actions pushed him over the edge and killed him.
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Yep. It damned sure killed him.

Of course it was his actions that caused the cops to "dogpile" him and that basic tactic is used regularly by law enforcement across the country. The end result? Death by tragic accident, not murder.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
They will tell you "resisting arrest."

It reminds me of an old book I read in which a coroner admitted he recorded every person killed by police in a police shootout as "suicide" - because in his view shooting at the police is an act of suicide - therefore no such person had ever been killed by police.

Now "resisting arrest" is a biological cause of death to many police groupies, which, of course, is nonsensical.
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WHo would tell you he died of 'resisting arrest'? Thats just silly. He had to have died of some form or cardio or respiratory failure. What did he die of?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Tettsuo said:
How the holy-hell is ANY of this relevant to the fact that the officer's chokehold and subsequent police dogpile led to Garner's death? I don't care if he's standing with one foot in the grave, their actions pushed him over the edge and killed him.
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Because if the decision is made that a 6'3" 360lb man needs to be subdued then that is pretty much how you need to do it if the man is healthy. Otherwise to are just asking for a beating.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

roguenuke said:
Which is dealt with after the person is taken into custody. Right or wrong, if the police came to my door claiming I had killed someone and they put me under arrest for it, I shouldn't resist even if I know they are wrong. Especially if they have some evidence that could have been used against me that shows probable cause that is later found to be wrong. The reason is because police are given the benefit of the doubt. The trial is where the accused gets the benefit of the doubt, not during the arrest.
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Yeah great, and it's well after the event and the cops still haven't turned up evidence of the existence of the red shirted individual in their story. The dude is apparently a ghost because they can't find him or something. Sorry, but I'm calling bull**** on their story.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
No, he died because of the actions police took. That's why it was called homicide. Do you disagree? Or are you done claiming it was asthma and weight? :)
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Seems you and Joko are like minded. Maybe you two together can come up with the actual cause of death. He also is going with homicide but offered the countering position of dying of 'resisting arrest'. So...you know...two heads....maybe you can come up with an actual answer.

What did he die of?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
You lie through omission. You conveniently left out his asthma, his diabetes and his advanced heart disease.

In the end, Gardener was amazing frail and literally near death and his 6'3" 360LB frame gave the exact opposite impression. It was that false impression that led to the officer's choices on how to detain Gardener. Had he been a relatively healthy then a combative 6'3" 360LB Gardener would probably be more than the officers could handle.
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Do... you ... realize... that "if he was like this" is not a defense for using excessive force on another human being? Like if a woman and a man get into a fight... and the man ends up beating her to within an inch of life... the defends himself saying: "If she had been a man of the same physical condition, she'd have put a better fight" will not get him out of prison time.... right?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
You lie through omission. You conveniently left out his asthma, his diabetes and his advanced heart disease.

In the end, Gardener was amazing frail and literally near death and his 6'3" 360LB frame gave the exact opposite impression. It was that false impression that led to the officer's choices on how to detain Gardener. Had he been a relatively healthy then a combative 6'3" 360LB Gardener would probably be more than the officers could handle.
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Another absurd message.

IF Gardener had been a 360 pound world champion MMA fighter or WWF champion... then yes, at least for a little while - he could have protected himself from being assaulted and killed by multiple police officers assaulting him to prevent him having an opportunity to resist arrest - for which they tactically decided NOT to inform him he was arrested and instead to surprise take him down before he could resist arrest if told he was under arrest.

New police procedure - pre-emptively beat a person down and into submissive prior to effecting or notifying of an arrest to prevent possible resistance arrest. Beat the person down violently into physical submission first - then inform the person he is under arrest. However, if the person resists being beaten, then it is after-the-fact-resisting arrest, which he is informed of being arrested after his resistance to it.



It seems there is a contest by police groupies of who can post the most absurd reasoning. :roll:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Henrin said:
Yeah great, and it's well after the event and the cops still haven't turned up evidence of the existence of the red shirted individual in their story. The dude is apparently a ghost because they can't find him or something. Sorry, but I'm calling bull**** on their story.
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Which they are not required to do after such an event. It is based on their beliefs at the time, not evidence found or not later, which affects formal charges being filed or not, not an actual arrest.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Moot said:
A small jab behind the knee can cause even Andre the Giant to lose his balance.


Officer Pantaleo was waiting behind the camera and ran in to join the fray. His life was never in danger as he went directly for the back of Garners neck just like a wolf attacking his prey. In fact, that's what the entire thing looked like... a pack of wolves bringing down a prey that looks to be in shock.
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The officer never said he thought his life was in danger.....he said he became fearful when between Garner and the glass window.


4.jpg



Banned Chokehold Is Used

Officer Pantaleo reaches around Mr. Garner’s neck. He holds Mr. Garner in what William J. Bratton, the police commissioner, said appeared to be a chokehold.

Legal issues : The New York City Police Department has banned the use of this particular hold, but the grand jury would only consider this to the extent that it indicated whether the officer was intentionally trying to kill Mr. Garner, acting “recklessly,” or in a “criminally negligent” manner, the legal definitions of various levels of murder and manslaughter.

Officer Pantaleo: The officer said he was attempting to use a maneuver that employs leverage to force a larger man to the ground. He said he did not intend to use a chokehold and that he learned the maneuver at the Police Academy.....snip~
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
Seems you and Joko are like minded. Maybe you two together can come up with the actual cause of death. He also is going with homicide but offered the countering position of dying of 'resisting arrest'. So...you know...two heads....maybe you can come up with an actual answer.

What did he die of?
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VanceMack, I'll make this really simple for you: What does homicide mean in every definition of the word?
 
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