No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

CMPancake · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Yep, I know perfectly well was a choke hold is. I also understand that a few seconds isn't enough to do any damage in a healthy person. In fact, for real life threatening damage to occur he would need to have been choked for about 4 minutes (the point when brain damage starts). More likely Gardner's "I can't breathe" had more to do with him being a severe asthmatic with heart disease who couldn't walk a block without needing to rest. His struggle likely triggered his asthma, and laying face down with the weight of officers on top of him exacerbated it.

For a choke hold to be fatal it would have to be applied long enough to cause death (5+ minutes) or with enough force to crush the person's windpipe making it impossible for them to breathe. The "Choke hold" in that video was no where near long enough and the autopsy found no damage to the windpipe.

I'm not debating that Garner was killed by the choke, what I am saying is that the choke itself was clearly meant to be just that, a choke. Garner's life was clearly in danger by this choke. The Officer in question intended to choke Eric Garner, and choking as we all know can be lethal. Plain and simple.

haymarket · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
Still at it? Why is is that you despise justice?

If justice is killing an unarmed man for suspicion of selling loose cigarettes - God help us all.

Hatuey · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
I think this goes much further than this. We see white cop abuse black cop plastered all over the news, unless a white kid does something funny (don't taze me bro), we NEVER hear about it. it's a law enforcment mentality issue, that's transcending race at this point which is what I believe even that sharpton clown is seeing.

I agree. I'm just pointing out that VanceMack can't point to this guy's criminality. So all he's left with is the bull**** real vs. fake arguments. For him, this isn't really abuse because some guy elsewhere had it worse. Okay fine, from now - if a man beats his wife, it's not really abuse because there are guys who have decapitated their wives. From now on, molesting 1 child is not really child abuse because there are catholic priests who molested hundreds. What I pointed out is that he doesn't have his usual bull**** arguments about how the police were right because he maybe did something terrible. He's got no pictures of this guy pretending to be a thug on myspace. All he's got is real vs. fake and that's all he needs to support police chokeholding a guy who didn't enjoy being harassed by the police.

Never you mind, if this case had been different, he'd have come into the thread screeching about showing common sense and how people are being excessive. Now he's pretending to be rationally looking at the events. Utter apologist bull****. This case has been universally criticized for the response of the GJ and the fact that even after a video clearly shows that the police were in the wrong, nothing happened. It's cases like this that give minorities in cities the perception that no matter what, there is a system working against them and they've been proven right at least as far as minorities go.

CMPancake · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
You a NY cop? No, you are not. They had the right based on his rep and previous multiple arrests. You are trying to convince me the cops were in the wrong.
Forget it, you cant. Not in this instance.

The only way a Police officer can restrain or even lay their hands on citizens if the citizen is being arrested or if physical contact prevents the situation from escalating. Even then, it can't intentionally harm the person. (For instance, they can push someone away from another individual if the pushed individual were to provoke a fight.) Choke holds like the one the officer used on Garner is prohibited in a good number of Police Departments for this reason. His rep and rap sheet are completely irrelevant.

MaggieD · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Kobie said:
His "fight" consisted of a weak slapping motion, at which point he was IMMEDIATELY put in a chokehold, after which four officers dogpiled him, one of whom had his knee on Garner's temple.

Don't start using war dead as props to justify police using OBVIOUSLY excessive force. That's tacky as ****.

CanadaJohn said:
CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News

What will be the reaction in NYC tonight as another grand jury chooses not to hand down an indictment for a white police officer who killed a black man who resisted arrest?

I've been thinking about this event. What a tragedy. I mean, think about a guy who's trying to earn some (what amounts to) spare change selling loosies on the streets of New York. And he's dead now. IMO, it has to do with training. De-escalation is a cop's friend.

So, what else might the cops have done with this guy?

"Hey, man, we've had a couple of complaints from business owners nearby. You're either going to have to move on? Or we're going to have to arrest you. Your choice. Me? I don't want to do the paperwork. Keep moving." Frankly, that could've been done from out-the-window of a squad car. Circle a 4-block area and come back to make sure he's gone.

If he doesn't leave, then we're back to a confrontation. I like to think/hope that we all agree with the rule of law in this country. But what kind of confrontation? I'd say a taser, not a 5-guy pile-on. That should probably be policy. I envision this:

"You're under arrest (for xxxxx). So here's what's going to happen. I'm going to cuff you and take you down to the station. If you resist, that officer over there is going to taze you, and, on top of this misdemeanor charge, you're going to jail for resisting arrest." (Other officer standing with tazer in hand.)

Too fat to get tazed? Too bad. Too old to get tazed? Too bad. There simply MUST be procedures that cops are required to follow before they can do a pile-on. We have the technology. Body cameras, tasers, etc. It's time we learned how to use them all.

It's also too bad the DA decided a grand jury was appropriate. This was a wrongful (albeit accidental) death. "I can't breath - I can't breath - I can't breath" means the guy was subdued. His lying on his stomach with weight on his back from the grappling officers? The consequence of that (his death) can be easily predicted. The officers should have been charged. No grand jury required.

CRUE CAB · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
again, cops were the aggressors, he wasn't the guy with the problem, he was just standing there.

Not how I saw it. I just saw it again. He was loud, agitated, and resisting. Sorry, that will get you hooked up every time.

CRUE CAB · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

radcen said:
Were his previous arrests confrontational, or compliant?

If you're going to claim his reputation was relevant, then that aspect is equally relevant.

Don't matter, he was a criminal. You look a person up in the system and all it shows is arrests. What for and when.

radcen · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

haymarket said:
If justice is killing an unarmed man for suspicion of selling loose cigarettes - God help us all.

This is a textbook example of the strawman argument. He wasn't killed for selling loose cigarettes. Stop intentionally spreading misinformation. He was accosted in the manner he was, allegedly, for resisting arrest.

That being said, in this instance, I don't buy that either, but the notion that he was killed for selling loose cigarettes is irresponsible hyperbole.

CRUE CAB · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CMPancake said:
The only way a Police officer can restrain or even lay their hands on citizens if the citizen is being arrested or if physical contact prevents the situation from escalating. Even then, it can't intentionally harm the person. (For instance, they can push someone away from another individual if the pushed individual were to provoke a fight.) Choke holds like the one the officer used on Garner is prohibited in a good number of Police Departments for this reason. His rep and rap sheet are completely irrelevant.

Not a choke hold. One frame of vid is not proof of a choke hold. But hey, you try the job on for size and see how your attitude changes about the poor misunderstood people.

ReverendHellh0und · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CMPancake said:
Thanks, and it is based on ability, but with my work hours I can only make there twice a week. I would love to do an extra day a week but we'll see what happens.

You should talk to some other students often the school will set up open mat times for groups who want it. We do.

I would wager you have more training and in much better shape than Eric Garner. Someone with asthma could very easily lose their wind with forearm pressure to a hold like that. Aside from that, from my viewpoint, the Officer's forearm is against the neck.

Not the point, on garner, his windpipe was clear, classic if we see a student doing that, we say tighten up. but in reality, even tight, the proper choke there is on the arteries not the windpipe. where it's position, he has leverage on one side, won't work.

He was loosing his air from the knees on his back.

I agree with this as well. Unless Garner was being a clear and present threat to someone (or being charged with a crime) then the Officer shouldn't have had his hands on him in the first place.

It was obscenely quick, he went behind him and grabbed him essentially.

In the picture grey shirt has his hand gripping blue shirt's hand, probably more an attempt to remove the hold or not. Then again this is all on aside

classic no-gi rear mount escape.

Make weight
Grab wrist an elbow
Raise the arm
Scooch and turn into him,
end up in guard.

If all goes well of course.

radcen · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
Don't matter, he was a criminal. You look a person up in the system and all it shows is arrests. What for and when.

You just love to be wrong, don't you? You do it so often. :lol:

Gaius46 · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
He wasn't choked to death! He died because he was too fat and out of shape to pick a fight with the cops.

The NYC coroner's office disagrees.

CRUE CAB · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

radcen said:
You just love to be wrong, don't you? You do it so often. :lol:

And you wore the badge for how long? Next time you have a police interaction, fight the cop.

Gaius46 · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CMPancake said:
Are you suggesting that a Police Officer didn't know cutting air off from someone wouldn't be lethal? You do understand what a chokehold is, right?

After several minutes yes. For the short period of time involved here no. The chokehold violates NYPD regulations and it can be seen as excessive but to suggest on the basis of that alone that the officer should have known that
the amount of force being applied would be lethal is a real stretch.

Kobie · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
Not a choke hold. One frame of vid is not proof of a choke hold. But hey, you try the job on for size and see how your attitude changes about the poor misunderstood people.

The full video has been posted in this thread, numerous times.

VanceMack · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Yes we know Vancemack, play the game of real vs. fake. It allows you to avoid discussing what everyone saw happened in this video. However, for all your distractions, they don't detract from the fact that this guy was being arrested for allegedly selling a few cigarettes. Spare me your support for other cases you feel people were really abused. I don't honestly give much of a **** about your ever changing standards for when black men should be and shouldn't be attacked. I'm surprised you haven't brought up a Malcolm X quote about Democrats or complained about how people aren't discussing black on black violence. It must be because this guy was seen by cops breaking up a fight or you would have jumped on that strategy. Now all you have is the fake vs. real game and I'm really not interested in discussing whether someone should be violently brought down for the terrible crime of being angry that police harass him.

We all saw what happened in this video. Cops approached the man to arrest him for selling untaxed cigarettes. Thats it. Garner decided he was not going to be arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes. He resisted. Cops took him to the ground and cuffed him. Dood was morbidly obese and died...not because he was beaten to death or choked to death but because he made a bad choice.

As for all your other silliness...

:lamo

Erod · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

cAPSLOCK said:
Lol.. So far your arguments are:

1. Another bad guy bites the dust. Yay.
2. He was fat.
3. You are all guilty because you hate cops.

You're really not doing too well at this debating thing.

That's not really what I'm saying at all. I'm trying to point out that there are REASONS for these decisions that have absolutely nothing to do with race, which is all the media, once again, is making this about. This cop wasn't trying to kill a black guy. If the cop was black and the other guy was white, this would have been the same decision. Racism isn't a constant variable; in fact, it's rarely a variable at all, truth be known.

Trayvon Martin was made all about race, which it wasn't. Same for Ferguson, and now same for this if you watched the news last night. It's politically charged BS designed to get people riled up, truth be damned.

I, too, have no idea how this NYC cop didn't get indicted, other than it had nothing to do with race. There is information we must not know, and until I see that evidence, I'll remain confused about it. However, I'm not stepping in the Al Sharpton bear trap on race. I want answers, too, because this simply makes no sense, but I'm willing to wait and find out the reasoning before I march down the street with a big race-baiting placard, trying to change the narrative.

And to your point, there are multiple posts in this thread that are just police-hating gibberish, which is what I referenced.

Ockham · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

apdst said:
The "choke hold" had nothing to do with his death. He should have been honest with himself about his health, before he picked a fight with the cops.

Absolutely it did as the coronors report showed cause of death homicide. He didn't pick a fight with anyone.

ashurbanipal · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you think most citizens in our civilization think prohibiting people from selling loose cigarettes on the streets is so oppressive as to warrant a revolution, you're just delusional and part of the fringe problems today's society faces and not part of the solution.

Hmmmm...two points:

1) I didn't say most people do. I don't have a sense of how many people might or might not agree. I'm also not sure why that, precisely, matters.

2) You seem to be missing the point, sort of in the same way that someone would who describes the assassination of John Kennedy as a brilliant example of Newtonian Mechanics in action is missing the point. It's not selling cigarettes, just as such, that is at issue. It's being able to acquire enough resources to meet basic needs, plus enough to put one in range of the wealth of everyone else. A society which fails to do those things for enough people will ultimately fail, and so far, that failure has been accompanied in every case by a violent changing of the guard at the top and generally a lot of bloodshed. That's a lesson of history that should have been well-learned by now.

Ockham · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
Was your gut on the grand jury?

If it were, it would have been one vote for indictment.

Ockham · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
I saw him resisting. I am surprised you didn't see it. It was before the first police officer grabbed him.

Then your definition of resisting is false.

Misterveritis said:
The grand jury says no crime.

And in this case, they were wrong.

Hatuey · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
We all saw what happened in this video. Cops approached the man to arrest him for selling untaxed cigarettes. Thats it. Garner decided he was not going to be arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes. He resisted. Cops took him to the ground and cuffed him. Dood was morbidly obese and died...not because he was beaten to death or choked to death but because he made a bad choice.

As for all your other silliness...

:lamo

Do you realize his death was ruled a homicide? I'll give you a clue. Homicide doesn't mean he died because of an asthma attack. Please keep making stuff up. It's fun to see you play the real vs. fake game.

CMPancake · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
Not a choke hold.

The Police Commish in NYC begs to differ.

CRUE CAB said:
One frame of vid is not proof of a choke hold. But hey, you try the job on for size and see how your attitude changes about the poor misunderstood people.

I intend on it actually.

I get the bias the majority of people have cops. I get it, I live in a family full of cops, my father himself was wrongly accused of misusing his power and spent years fighting the case (a case he thankfully won.) And I know once in the force I'll be faced with that same bias, but I won't stand here and act like the Police officers in question stood here and were merely doing their jobs. They were the ones who made the situation violent, and as a result someone died. If we don't hold the Police accountable for their actions, then who will?

Gaius46 · Dec 4, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
did you catch my edit?

This one?

ReverendHellh0und said:
convicted of the subdivicion meaning he imported lots and lots of packs? no?

Note, however, there is no talk of selling loosies. Technically not a crime in ny.

No. Paragraph (b) doesn't put a lower limit on the number in possession. Here's the paragraph

b) Any person, other than an agent licensed by the commissioner, who
possesses or transports for the purpose of sale any unstamped or
unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes subject to tax imposed by
section four hundred seventy-one of this chapter, or who sells or offers
for sale unstamped or unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes in
violation of the provisions of article twenty of this chapter shall be
guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person who violates the provisions of this
subdivision after having previously been convicted of a violation of
this subdivision within the preceding five years shall be guilty of a
class E felony.

Bolded part clearly says "any unstamped or unlawfully stamped" so even selling or intending to sell a single one violates (b).

The other paragraphs talk about numbers of cigarettes and pounds of tobacco but I didn't read them too closely since they didn't seem to apply in this case.

Ockham · Dec 4, 2014

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
Really?

Really.

Misterveritis said:
You want a jury even when a group of citizens determines there is insufficient evidence?

I question the validity of the GJ in this case.

Misterveritis said:
Why would you want that?

Because it was obvious to anyone there was enough to indict.

Misterveritis said:
The grand jury is there to prevent government tyranny. Why would you throw that safeguard away?

I would question this GJ and the process and investigate it. I'm not one to blame cops in fact the direct opposite. I'm also one for considering as much evidence as possible before coming to a judgement, so I'm probably one of the LAST people to speak out and claim something stinks .... in this case it's overwhelmingly wrong what happened. It's like a group of people all claiming gravity doesn't exist and the sky isn't blue when we obviously know different and it's obvious.

No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

CMPancake

No gods, no masters.

haymarket

Hatuey

Rule of Two

CMPancake

No gods, no masters.

MaggieD

CRUE CAB

CRUE CAB

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

CRUE CAB

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

Gaius46

CRUE CAB

Gaius46

Kobie

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Erod

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

ashurbanipal

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Hatuey

Rule of Two

CMPancake

No gods, no masters.

Gaius46

Ockham

Noblesse oblige