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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
There are a wide variety of dangerous diseases one can be exposed to. The one that scares me the most is Hepatitis. HIV is also available to go.
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HIV and AIDS can be passed through mouth to mouth? C'man, stop with the ducking and dodging. Which exotic diseases could he have passed through the mouth?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
It isn't illegal. It was banned by the NYPD.

(Info just fed to me by Mr. B who called his sister's husband who just retired after 17 years with NYPD) - please confirm on internet if this info is false. My BIL said people who keep calling it "illegal" are wrong, it's not "illegal" just prohibited by the NYPD.
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Soooo.. You are arguing choking someone (a inherently lethal move) isnt illegal? So if I put someone under citizens arrest for a crime (like jay walking or something) and choke them till they die then I wont be proscecuted? I mean.. you are saying that choking someone isnt illegal... so it must not be or what?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

KevinKohler said:
He died because his heart stopped, not because he couldn't breath. Now, choking him was a likely factor in his heart stopping...stress kills fat people. It's a fact.


Also a fact?


Resisting arrest, no matter the offense, can, and likely WILL, result in violence, and a continuing escalation of such until either all of them, or you, are dead. There is no other option.


Cops should, what? Let unhealthy people go? Sit around for five hours trying to reason with unreasonable people? Cops get paid by the hour, folks. Should they negotiate with the people they intend to arrest? "Oh, sorry, sir, you DON'T want these cuffs? Well, I'll tell you what...you don't tell anyone about this, and I'll just let you right on in the back of my car, ok? Just for you."



Here's the facts. This guy clearly broke a rule, no matter how insignificant. He was placed under arrest for the, what, 30th time? He resisted. He did not comply with the orders issued him by the arresting officer. The officer then proceeded to use force, to which, he resisted that as well. The force escalated. Again, what you want the cops to do? Apologize? Let him go? But only those that REALLY don't want to get arrested, and only if it's not a serious crime?

You have a problem with the law he broke, take that up with those that write them, and more importantly, those that vote in those that write them...not the people charged with enforcing them.
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From what I've read the coroner ruled that neck and chest compression where the primary causes of death. His heart condition, weight and asthma were contributing factors.

It's Aldo not clear from the reports I've read that Garner was actually breaking any laws at the time. The police knew him and may have simply approached him based on his priors.

The cop clearly violated NYPD policy. He should lose both his job and his pension for it. The city will settle the inevitable lawsuit and the taxpayers will be out millions.

And NY did not burn.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
There was no way for police officers to know that an morbidly obese older man was not physically fit enough to be tackled by multiple men, chocked and his head pressed into the concrete - and his saying he couldn't breathe certainly could be considered merely a tactical lie by the man hoping to make a counter attack. (that's a sneering statement).

What is MOST important is his 6 children and grandchildren are explained how evil and stupid their father was and why he had to die, which really their father deciding to commit suicide by cop.

Would it fair to estimate his child and his wife will hate all police officers down to the marrow of their bones for the rest of their lives?

This shouldn't have happened. Murder? No. Off the charts? Absolutely.

However, there is the police union, so even discipline strictly prohibited.

The man's mistake - if he was selling one cigarette at a time where they are taxed to the point to being only a rich man's luxury in NYC - was he tried to earn a living. Really, he should have been collecting disability and staying home - unless out protesting for more benefits.
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So for you then it is Too Big To Fail and Too Fat to Be Arrested.

Understood.

Place your anger in the tax revolt. Join your local TEA Party and begin to do some good where you live.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Soooo.. You are arguing choking someone (a inherently lethal move) isnt illegal? So if I put someone under citizens arrest for a crime (like jay walking or something) and choke them till they die then I wont be proscecuted? I mean.. you are saying that choking someone isnt illegal... so it must not be or what?
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Choking someone in self defense is not illegal. Police are not barred from using chokeholds by law. They barred by NYPD policy.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
Too big to fail. Too fat to be arrested?
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People are different. Unhealthy people are treated differently than healthy, young people. You can be arrested if you're unhealthy. Just not pushed face down on your big stomache on the pavement, with a chokehold around your neck, and policemen sitting on your back. That's a sure way to kill an asthmatic, unhealthy, morbily obese person. Which is what happened.

I could see the danger as soon as they pushed him down. Why didn't they? Unfamiliar with unhealthy or large people?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

beefheart said:
Someone is dead.

Over a stupid offense that shouldn't even be an arrestable crime.

Enjoy your police state.
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You will have to take up your concerns about New York City with New York City. I hold no sway over the liberal democrat nanny state that is ensconced there.

Why would you think it is my police state? Have you run out of interesting things to say?

It would be a police state if people like you got your way and could overturn a Grand Jury decision.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Henry David said:
The people that sit on this jury must be police officers.

If ever there was a case of manslaughter, this was it.
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Remember a Grand Jury only hears what a prosecutor wants and prosecutors don't charge policemen for killing while on duty PERIOD. They are his friends and colleges and it would create bad blood between them. The system is rigged to protect police. Here in Ft. Meyers FL a cop was texting when he ran over and killed a 12 year old on a bike. No charges were filed and the kid was white too. Don't kid yourself. Cops have a license to kill just like 007 did. The scary part is that they know it too.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

To clarify something often wrongly said.

The tax on a single cigarette in NYC is 29 1/4 cents each - not a nickel. The per pack tax (20 cigarettes) is $5.85. The tax on little cigars is $4.35.

NYC is a city - more than any other in the USA - that admires wealth and punishes the poor - such is the faux "liberal" stronghold. Smoking is a rich person's luxury like so much else in NYC.

For a person who smokes 1 pack of cigarettes a day (an average for smokers - if not more) - that person pays $175 per month just in taxes - or $2,100 per year in taxes. It is not a progressive tax.

Adding the cost of the cigarettes themselves, cigarette smokers in NYC pay around $350 per month (over $10 per day) for 1 pack of cigarettes per day.

This is BIG money for government, but also cigarette running and smuggling is both big business, little business as just part of being a New Yorker. If every New Yorker who brought in cigarettes from other states was arrested, there would be a million arrests.

Then again, he was an OMG tax evader! Or was he? If he bought the cigarette packs in NYC then he wouldn't be, or so it's seem.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

whysoserious said:
Why'd he tackle that cop? That eye gouge tho...
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He thought the guy on the ground was being arrested for no reason so he sucker punched the cop.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

"WE understand it is against their policy. And the one who used it will probably face discipline.

Can you do a bit more research and show that it is a crime?"
joko104 said:
It's a nonsensical question. It's like asking if it is a crime to hit or kick someone. Yes. No. Maybe. It depends on the situation.
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You should have simply said, "No MisterVeritis, I cannot show that it is a crime to use that particular hold."

Is it a crime to hit or kick someone? Are you certain you cannot find a statute anywhere that says it is a crime to hit or kick someone?

LOL. Let's try an easy one. Can you find your ass with both hands?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
"Those with tyrannical hearts always speak this way.

Civilians, members of the community, saw the evidence the prosecutor had and determined there was insufficient evidence to prove a crime had occurred. I trust non-governmental civilians. They get it right most of the time. "


Cool. I am extreme because I support a lawful grand jury process. I suppose I agree with you. It is clear that I am extreme because I actually support a civil society built on lawful conduct designed to prevent tyranny at any level by government officials.

Now what were you saying? And wipe the dribble off your chin.


Lot's of things do not seem right. A fat man with asthma die while resisting arrest for petty crimes. Too bad.

Not only are you not familiar with the evidence it was not your responsibility. It was the responsibility of a specific grand jury. They reviewed the evidence and determined there was insufficient evidence to charge anyone with a crime.
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Insulting other posters means that you know you have lost the argument.

I hope I never end up being a person who is sarcastic about someone dying, as you are. THAT is sad.

I respect Grand Juries, of course. But it is our duty to keep an eye out on our justice system for any injustices. It is YOUR duty, too. You choose not to, and that's your choice.

We are all adults. Sometimes we know in our gut, based on life experiences, that something isn't right. I can also see the video and SEE before my eyes a man dying, surrounded by peope who don't care. All of which is over what is a misdemeanor, if he even did anything. I didn't see him selling cigarettes in that video. I don't have all the facts. Neither do you. The difference is that I admit it and take that into account.

Not saying the GJ decision is wrong. But, as someone who fully supported the no-bill indictment of Wilson for the Brown death, I find this incident very different and very disturbing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

whysoserious said:
You can just do chest compressions until EMS arrives. I've shown that 4% is low, and one thing that drags that number down is that CPR is performed in cases where it wouldn't be helpful, but even if it was 1%, who gives a ****? Do it. Why wouldn't you?

1% is a lot better than no percent. All day I take 1% over no percent.
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Yeah. Once you start you have to keep going until someone with greater authority comes by and takes over.

I never said I would not do it. I have done it. Once.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Thats not true. If you are innocent you can resist arrest. You may end up hurt or killed. But you can still do it. You know its illegal for a cop to assualt or detain you for no reason right? You know its legal for you to shoot a swat team if they break into your house unjustified and unanounced right? It may be smarter for your overall safety to comply but it isnt a requirement. The fault chain truly begins with assault by the cops against a non-violent. With 5 officers there is NO REASON to choke the man with a lethal manuever. So what? it would have taken them an extra minute to get the cuffs on without the choke.

If a cop says "you are under arrest!" and you haven't committed a crime then the cop is the beginning of fault.
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You know what, I learned something today. I didn't know that resisting arrest under some circumstances and in some states is legal, but upon looking it up, it seems that's the case.

Reading more about it, though, I also learned that an arrest made in error is not unlawful if the officer's belief that the arrest was lawful was reasonable.

In this case, the arrest was reasonable, because the man was breaking the law by selling contraband cigarettes.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

If the police checked bags coming into at both airports in NYC I have NO doubt they could make THOUSANDS - if not tens of thousands - of TAX EVADER!!! arrests over out of state cigarettes. Set up cigarette searches at the New Jersey border would result in another tens of thousands per day.

Why don't the police arrest all the beggars who are everywhere in NYC who don't have a panhandler's license? At least that old father of 6 was trying to earn his 50 cents.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Peter Grimm said:
You know what, I learned something today. I didn't know that resisting arrest under some circumstances and in some states is legal, but upon looking it up, it seems that's the case.

Reading more about it, though, I also learned that an arrest made in error is not unlawful if the officer's belief that the arrest was lawful was reasonable.

In this case, the arrest was reasonable, because the man was breaking the law by selling contraband cigarettes.
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Allegedly.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius46 said:
Choking someone in self defense is not illegal. Police are not barred from using chokeholds by law. They barred by NYPD policy.
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There was no self defense... The cops were the one assualting. **** you wanna be word-smiths are annoying.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
Yeah. Once you start you have to keep going until someone with greater authority comes by and takes over.

I never said I would not do it. I have done it. Once.
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You've done it before? Wow. I've never been in a position to, but I bet it's weird and a bit scary.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

joko104 said:
Homicide EXACTLY means the person was killed by another person or persons. You are arguing with the coroner's finding, not what "homicide" means.
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I mean, we can see pretty clearly in the video that the man died due to the struggle with the officers, I don't know what you think you're proving here. That's all the coroner is saying, and nobody is disagreeing with it.

Where we disagree is that I believe the officers used reasonable force and that the man's death was caused by the use of that reasonable force coupled with pre-existing health conditions.

The coroner has said nothing contrary to that.

The video tells you everything you need to know. A healthy individual would not have died from being tackled.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
"WE understand it is against their policy. And the one who used it will probably face discipline.

Can you do a bit more research and show that it is a crime?"

You should have simply said, "No MisterVeritis, I cannot show that it is a crime to use that particular hold."

Is it a crime to hit or kick someone? Are you certain you cannot find a statute anywhere that says it is a crime to hit or kick someone?

LOL. Let's try an easy one. Can you find your ass with both hands?
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You have no clue what you're posting. it is not a crime to hit or kick someone. It is only a crime to illegally hit or kick someone. Its not illegal to shoot someone either. It is only illegal to illegally shoot someone.

Tell me, when was the last time you read of a martial arts class, football game or boxing match raided by the police? You post pointless and wrong messages.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

haymarket said:
I love how people who pretend to believe in liberty and freedom voice opinions aligning them with the virtues of a police state.
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Are you making an effort to goad me Hay?

What is it about civilians being in control of the government's ability to prosecute people, part of the tradition of a free people that is intended to prevent a police state, that has you confused?

And you were a teacher? Those poor children.

You already know my opinion of you. It remains low. You, and people like you have the pretensions of wanting liberty and justice but without all the mess of having real people involved. A grand jury, something a teacher of government ought to be familiar with, reviewed the evidence the prosecutor had and they determined that the government did not have sufficient evidence to charge anyone with a crime.

And you hate that result. Many who have the heart of a tyrant do.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

whysoserious said:
Allegedly.
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You pretty much would have to sell to the grand jury that the officers knew this man wasn't guilty of anything but they took him down and arrested him anyway. To me, that's a reach.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

TheDemSocialist said:
This is ****ing unreal. It was an prohibited choke hold and the coroner called it a homicide, how does that not generate at the very least a manslaughter charge?
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Probably because the guy did not die until after it was stopped when he was still talking would be my guess. Normally I would go the other way, but the video in the case made it look more like an inadvertent and unintended consequence by having to have so many people take down the guy who was not being cooperative albeit not combative either.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Peter Grimm said:
I mean, we can see pretty clearly in the video that the man died due to the struggle with the officers, I don't know what you think you're proving here. That's all the coroner is saying, and nobody is disagreeing with it.

Where we disagree is that I believe the officers used reasonable force and that the man's death was caused by the use of that reasonable force coupled with pre-existing health conditions.

The coroner has said nothing contrary to that.

The video tells you everything you need to know. A healthy individual would not have died from being tackled.
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No, that also is false. He did not die as a result of "struggling with the officers."

"Struggling" is not a cause of death.

However, you do raise a question in that should the force be relative to the person it is used against?

In your opinion, would that force have been reasonable against a 3 year old? A 90 year old? I gather in your opinion the answer is yes, that the person him/herself is irrelevant.

Obviously that man was not a "healthy person." In fact, people like you are claiming that is blatantly obvious.

Hmmmm, think about that for a moment. The offense (alleged)? Selling cigarettes on the street without a permit. The person doing it? A person obviously in very poor health. So... what should the attitude of the police then be? Clearly, your view is to disregard the poor health of the person. Even use it against him maybe?.
 
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