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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
He was just fine before they put him in a choke hold and compressed his chest.

It didn't help that they neglected to revive him for several minutes after he lost consciousness. Got a good way to dispense with that form of negligence, too?
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He was "just fine"? Then why did the coroner list medical conditions - asthma, obesity and high blood pressure - as "contributing factors" in his death?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Which is why its a better comparison. Garner assualted no one. If a crack head punches me once and I choke him, he dies. Its my fault. Garner is on a pedastal above that. He never did any voilence what so ever.
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No, your example doesn't work because who would have have committed a crime as your act was in self defense because an assault was being initiated against you. "Fault" is an ethical question.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
It is your reasoning. The action that lead to his death and endangered everyone was correct because it subdued him. That is YOUR claim.
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"Endangered everyone", how so? And no, I don't trust your reasoning enough to allow you to evaluate mine. Not from what you've posted here.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Objective Voice said:
But do you really need to have his commentary/account confirmed? Can we not accept eyewitness testimony or accept what we see with our own eyes from the video account?

A few things are plainly clear and cannot be denied:

- Mr. Garner was attacked from behind by NYPD while trying to explain to them "he did nothing wrong" (in his opinion).
- The cops on the scene never announced they were placing Mr. Garner under arrest before they moved in to subdue him.
- Mr. Garner was never "Mirandized" (read his rights). (But to be fair, he was never taken into custody.)
- At least one NYPD officer continued to use excessive force even after Mr. Garner "stopped resisting". (You can even hear one police officer say "he's not resisting" in the video as other officers continued to subdue him while he was on the ground.)
- Mr. Garner stated at least 11 times "I can't breath" and police continued to subdue him even when it was clear he wasn't resisting arrest and he was in physical distress.

You don't need vetting to see the above as actual facts of events as they played out.
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So then why did the Grand Jury ignore all of that?

(By the way, I never knew people could utter 11 sentences while being choked to death).
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

upsideguy said:
"Contributing factors" are irrelevant. It is the direct causation of death that is relevant.
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Stop right there, absolutely wrong in every sense.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
He was "just fine"? Then why did the coroner list medical conditions - asthma, obesity and high blood pressure - as "contributing factors" in his death?
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Because they were contributing factors.

If a 2 year old dies of sexual assault - the small size and age also would be "a contributing factor." Throwing a 95 year old to concrete and the person died of it, age and frailness would be "a contributing factor."

Do you think that is a defense? Why?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
He was just fine before they put him in a choke hold and compressed his chest.

It didn't help that they neglected to revive him for several minutes after he lost consciousness. Got a good way to dispense with that form of negligence, too?
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He was a heart attack looking for a place to happen.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
"The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, caused his death."

He's a medical examiner. Who are you? Tell us your medical and autopsy credentials.
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Uh... Did you not notice that I'm advancing the medical examiner's position, and that apdst is the one denying that the police killed him?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Because they were contributing factors.

If a 2 year old dies of sexual assault - the small size and age also would be "a contributing factor." Throwing a 95 year old to concrete and the person died of it, age and frailness would be "a contributing factor."

Do you think that is a defense? Why?
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No defense needed since there was no crime.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Because they were contributing factors.

If a 2 year old dies of sexual assault - the small size and age also would be "a contributing factor." Throwing a 95 year old to concrete and the person died of it, age and frailness would be "a contributing factor."

Do you think that is a defense? Why?
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No, not on an autopsy report it wouldn't. Here's where you highlight your misunderstanding of what the portion of the report we are privy to says.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
Uh... Did you not notice that I'm advancing the medical examiner's position, and that apdst is the one denying that the police killed him?
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The ME said the police killed him? Link?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Stop right there, absolutely wrong in every sense.
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It is not wrong in every sense, but it is not wrong in every sense. Contributing factors are not the decisive factor. it is absurd to claim it is.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
Uh... Did you not notice that I'm advancing the medical examiner's position, and that apdst is the one denying that the police killed him?
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No, you are advancing your misunderstanding of what the ME has reported.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
NO, no he wasn't. His state of health has been posted numerous times. Why continue to post falsehoods?
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:roll:

He was breathing, he was walking, he was not having a heart attack until the police used force on him. And it's the medical examiner who claimed that compression to Garner's neck and chest were instrumental in his death. Please try to keep up.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
He was "just fine"? Then why did the coroner list medical conditions - asthma, obesity and high blood pressure - as "contributing factors" in his death?
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He was breathing, he was walking, he was not having a heart attack until the police used force on him. And it's the medical examiner who claimed that compression to Garner's neck and chest were instrumental in his death. Please try to keep up.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
It is not wrong in every sense, but it is not wrong in every sense. Contributing factors are not the decisive factor. it is absurd to claim it is.
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It's wrong in a legal sense and wrong in a moral sense, what else is left. Contributing factors are not irrelevant as claimed by the original post.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Because they were contributing factors.

If a 2 year old dies of sexual assault - the small size and age also would be "a contributing factor." Throwing a 95 year old to concrete and the person died of it, age and frailness would be "a contributing factor."

Do you think that is a defense? Why?
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Please show me a coroner's report that lists "small size and age" as a "contributing factor" on an autopsy report on a child who dies of a sexual assault. How do you die of a sexual assault anyway? Penetration?

Just one will do.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
:roll:

He was breathing, he was walking, he was not having a heart attack until the police used force on him. And it's the medical examiner who claimed that compression to Garner's neck and chest were instrumental in his death. Please try to keep up.
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None of that means he was doing alright physically.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
He was breathing, he was walking, he was not having a heart attack until the police used force on him. And it's the medical examiner who claimed that compression to Garner's neck and chest were instrumental in his death. Please try to keep up.
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And the same coroner said that his medical issues were contributing factors in his death. In other words, he didn't just die because of a chokehold.

I'm keeping up...it appears you are not.

By the way, everyone is breathing before you take your last breath.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

upsideguy said:
"Contributing factors" are irrelevant. It is the direct causation of death that is relevant. The fact that he was obese does make his life worth less or mean that a homicide is not a homicide, which is the tone that many seem to apply here.

As a matter of illustration, there is a guy here in Colorado that is serving a life sentence for manslaughter for a "mercy killing" of his 90 year old father. I'm certain that wasn't a very difficult "kill"... and surely the father's age and fragility were "contributing factors" in his death. Those factors, however, had zero weight in the determination of the guy's guilt and seemed have zero weight with the judge, who showed no mercy when pronouncing sentence.

A homicide is a homicide.
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Of COURSE its relevant. Reasonable force was used to take down an individual that was resisting arrest. The responding officers didnt beat him, taze him, or pepper spray him. The 'choke hold' which was used to take him to the ground was released once he was on the ground. He did not die of being choked to death. He did not die of a loss oxygen due to an applied choke hold. He died of a heart attack caused by the physical exertion from the event. Had he not resisted arrest, he would be here alive today enjoying cheeseburgers and cigarettes. Granted he would still be one time tying his shoes away from a heart attack, but he would most likely be alive today.

A grand jury decided the cops actions did not meet criteria for trial. So...I guess we are all god then what with the circumstances and all. Right?

Lesson...dont fight cops. He should have known better...after all, he DID have 30 opportunities to get the memo.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
No, not on an autopsy report it wouldn't. Here's where you highlight your misunderstanding of what the portion of the report we are privy to says.
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No, your claim is that if a small person, old person, child, person in poor health, die from a violent attack - where a 21 year old athlete would not have - so therefore there was no manslaughter/murder is outrageously absurd.

You claim you have the perfect defect to child abusers who kill babies and little children - because their lesser health and smaller size was "a contributing factor."

The reasons that you keep giving are so blatantly and understandably wrong, and so contrary to every application of law in relationship to assaults it seems clear at this point that your messages are using satire to really argue the opposite of what you are posting.

Here's the fact. If you assault someone you are liable for the consequences of your assault. Your incessant justifications trying to blame the victim does not work. It has never worked. There is no theory of law by which it works.

Thus, of the many reasons you should not violently assault someone is that the person may have medical conditions you are not aware of, by which your assault may cause more injury and have consequences other than you intended.

Unlike what your view of "blame the victim, not the assailant!" defense, it doesn't work.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
No, your claim is that if a small person, old person, child, person in poor health, die from a violent attack - where a 21 year old athlete would not have - so therefore there was no manslaughter/murder is outrageously absurd.

You claim you have the perfect defect to child abusers who kill babies and little children - because their lesser health and smaller size was "a contributing factor."

The reasons that you keep giving are so blatantly and understandably wrong, and so contrary to every application of law in relationship to assaults it seems clear at this point that your messages are using satire to really argue the opposite of what you are posting.

Here's the fact. If you assault someone you are liable for the consequences of your assault. Your incessant justifications trying to blame the victim does not work. It has never worked. There is no theory of law by which it works.

Thus, of the many reasons you should not violently assault someone is that the person may have medical conditions you are not aware of, by which your assault may cause more injury and have consequences other than you intended.

Unlike what your view of "blame the victim, not the assailant!" defense, it doesn't work.
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Post #2067. The rest is just rambling strawmen and mischaracterization because your arguments have all been debunked, many times now in fact.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
The ME said the police killed him? Link?
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It's all over the place, dude.

The Medical Examiner’s Office ruled his death a homicide caused by “compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”

Even Breitbart reported this bit. The Actual Facts of The Eric Garner Case
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
No, you are advancing your misunderstanding of what the ME has reported.
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Dude? The ME ruled it a homicide, and explicitly cited compression of the neck, chest and being held in a prone position. How can you not know that?
 
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