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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

WRONG !!

Racism is a narrative almost exclusively relied upon by left wingers.

A desperate attempt to shore up empty arguments by injecting irrelevant manufactured narratives is something Righties have to do.
It comes down to perception, people tend to side who they identify with. In a case like this, right wingers side with the cops because the police are going after black criminal because he's "breaking the law" If law enforcement is going after a white cowboy hat wearing rancher for breaking the law, they side with the rancher because law enforcement is "unjustly harassing" him.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

You a NY cop? No, you are not. They had the right based on his rep and previous multiple arrests. You are trying to convince me the cops were in the wrong.
Forget it, you cant. Not in this instance.


I know many NYC cops, lost half my Chelsea piers hockey team in 911. I'm anything but anti cop. but wrong is wrong, and this here was very wrong.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

No, you did, when you said he should only be given a ticket for the reason that it's only a misdemeanor. Don't tell me, you're going to go into complete Kobie denial that you ever posted any such thing despite the fact that it's right ****ing there.

See edit.

Why is it that any time I go into "Kobie denial that I ever posted any such thing," as you say, you never find the thing you claimed I posted?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I do not usually ask for evidence but can you provide some links to show the coroner said he died because he suffocated?

No, I heard someone on TV read that information.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I think you are right but it will be a long day in hell before police unions don't fight any change. It's absolutely astounding how many videos there are on the internet of people being harassed, assaulted, and denied their basic civil rights for everything from... being drunk during Mardi Gras to.... filming police being in the wrong. A few weeks ago I watched a video of a guy at a baseball game being harassed and arrested by the police for being ... drunk and loud... at a baseball game. It's getting to the point where if you are doing something, no matter the setting and environment and a cop doesn't like it, the only way to resist is to spend money on lawyers, take them to court, and hope the justice system - which has a lousy record of convicting ****ty cops - sees things your way.
There are indeed abuse instances that are recorded and demand action. Concurrent with this thread there is a thread on a police action in Colorado which I believe is CLEARLY abusive. In that video the officer is seen striking the man suspected of selling heroin 6 times in the face and slamming his head into the ground. His 'reason' is he was trying to prevent him from swallowing a sock full of heroin. The violence in that case was clearly not warranted. Point being...just because some cases are abusive doesnt make all cases abusive.

In the Garner case, the officers had made the decision to arrest him. Stop. No need to proceed with the argument. Once a law enforcement officer has made the decision to arrest you, you are going to be arrested. That doesnt mean you are guilty, doesnt mean you will be convicted, but it DOES mean you are under arrest. The SECOND you decide Oh hell no...I'm not either and move to prevent the arrest you are resisting arrest. Its truly that simply. Garner was not beaten down by a pack of cops with dogs and rubber hoses. He was brought to the ground because he resisted arrest. He didnt die because they beat him to death, he died because he was morbidly obese and had a number of associated health problems. He wasnt choked to death. He wasnt beaten to death. He didnt DESERVE death. He died because he resisted arrest and was physically ill.

Not every instance is 'abuse'. Not every instance is NOT abuse.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I know many NYC cops, lost half my Chelsea piers hockey team in 911. I'm anything but anti cop. but wrong is wrong, and this here was very wrong.
If you are ever involved in an altercation, even as a "peacemaker". And the cops roll up, the first guy that is a problem. Gets hooked up. Period, and if you resist. You get full attention.
Be cool, and you will probably get cut loose right then and there.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

The death penalty doesn't apply to that.

And you, or any cop arresting someone for what should be a ticket should not be the executioner.

He wasn't killed intentionally. i.e. he wasn't executed
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

You a NY cop? No, you are not. They had the right based on his rep and previous multiple arrests. You are trying to convince me the cops were in the wrong.
Forget it, you cant. Not in this instance.
Were his previous arrests confrontational, or compliant?

If you're going to claim his reputation was relevant, then that aspect is equally relevant.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

and just as i fill up in the next state (12 miles away) to save 30c a gallon, those in new york seek out 'discounted' cigarettes, buying them where they were not taxed so significantly (but where gas taxes are among the highest)

We would normally refer to that as a gray market but the effect is the same as a black market.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You should remove that "libertarian" from your political lean.


What law did he specifically break in this incident? What was he charged with? What was he doing?

Please link to his "30 convictions".

Police claim he was selling LOOSE cigarettes. He had a single pack of untaxed cigarettes on him (remember 59% of all cigarettes in the city are bootleg).




Remember he was supposedly selling loose cigarettes. here is the law:



Criminal Sale of Untaxed Cigarettes (NY State Tax Law § 1814) | New York Criminal Defense Blawg

"(b) Any person, other than an agent licensed by the commissioner, who
possesses or transports for the purpose of sale any unstamped or
unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes subject to tax imposed by
section four hundred seventy-one of this chapter, or who sells or offers
for sale unstamped or unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes in
violation of the provisions of article twenty of this chapter shall be
guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person who violates the provisions of this
subdivision after having previously been convicted of a violation of
this subdivision within the preceding five years shall be guilty of a
class E felony."





Read it, in order for it to be considered a misdemeanor, it would have to be the second time and he would have to be selling packs. so, this guy was attacked, wrassled to the ground and killed because of single cigarettes and a single pack of untaxed cigarettes that is hardly even a misdemeanor.



It's no worse, ****, its less than a reckless driving ticket. if you accidentally get stopped for doing 30 over the limit, should you be dragged out of your car and killed?


I don't think so.


misdemeanor or felony....what he was doing was against the law

he also had the opportunity to COMPLY with officer's commands

he refused

so again....do you want to live in a society of laws, or one of lawlessness?

it is a simple question

what happened was tragic.....using a taser could have killed him also......do you think that video would have gone any less viral?

when officers of the law tell you to do something, i was taught to comply

i can argue my case in a court of law another day....with an attorney at my side

i know better than to resist arrest, and that is what happened here

and if you dont like the laws, have them changed

but taxes are how states and cities provide.......and cigarette taxes are a BIG part of that in NYC
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Then I will concede you have more personal experience in the field than I do. I'm a few months away from earning my white belt.

Keep at it, it gets really fun at blue belt. make sure your school promotes based on ability, not time in grade.


The trachea can still be compressed by a forearm if given enough force. Not as effectively if the elbow is properly placed but still possible none the less. With the position the officer is in and with his right hand locked in he has more than enough pressure to compress the trachea.

Nope, I'd never tap on that hold. where his elbow creases is, his trach has space. also without hooks in, he's got no leverage.

If the intent was to disable Garner there were other options than going for his neck. It was sloppy but it is apparent to me that Garner was being choked by the officer.

I agree. but I see no reason why garner needed to be "disabled" at that point in the video.

Upon further review, I think you might be right. However it also looks like the grey shirt is pulling out of the hold? I could be wrong and it is a bad picture to use as an example.


yes, grey shirt is attempting the classic escape from the back.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It comes down to perception, people tend to side who they identify with. In a case like this, right wingers side with the cops because the police are going after black criminal because he's "breaking the law" If law enforcement is going after a white cowboy hat wearing rancher for breaking the law, they side with the rancher because law enforcement is "unjustly harassing" him.



Even al Sharpton said this isn't about race. perhaps you can join him in not using the black man as a bat against your white devils
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

There are indeed abuse instances that are recorded and demand action. Concurrent with this thread there is a thread on a police action in Colorado which I believe is CLEARLY abusive. In that video the officer is seen striking the man suspected of selling heroin 6 times in the face and slamming his head into the ground. His 'reason' is he was trying to prevent him from swallowing a sock full of heroin. The violence in that case was clearly not warranted. Point being...just because some cases are abusive doesnt make all cases abusive.

In the Garner case, the officers had made the decision to arrest him. Stop. No need to proceed with the argument. Once a law enforcement officer has made the decision to arrest you, you are going to be arrested. That doesnt mean you are guilty, doesnt mean you will be convicted, but it DOES mean you are under arrest. The SECOND you decide Oh hell no...I'm not either and move to prevent the arrest you are resisting arrest. Its truly that simply. Garner was not beaten down by a pack of cops with dogs and rubber hoses. He was brought to the ground because he resisted arrest. He didnt die because they beat him to death, he died because he was morbidly obese and had a number of associated health problems. He wasnt choked to death. He wasnt beaten to death. He didnt DESERVE death. He died because he resisted arrest and was physically ill.

Not every instance is 'abuse'. Not every instance is NOT abuse.

Yes we know Vancemack, play the game of real vs. fake. It allows you to avoid discussing what everyone saw happened in this video. However, for all your distractions, they don't detract from the fact that this guy was being arrested for allegedly selling a few cigarettes. Spare me your support for other cases you feel people were really abused. I don't honestly give much of a **** about your ever changing standards for when black men should be and shouldn't be attacked. I'm surprised you haven't brought up a Malcolm X quote about Democrats or complained about how people aren't discussing black on black violence. It must be because this guy was seen by cops breaking up a fight or you would have jumped on that strategy. Now all you have is the fake vs. real game and I'm really not interested in discussing whether someone should be violently brought down for the terrible crime of being angry that police harass him.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

There are indeed abuse instances that are recorded and demand action. Concurrent with this thread there is a thread on a police action in Colorado which I believe is CLEARLY abusive. In that video the officer is seen striking the man suspected of selling heroin 6 times in the face and slamming his head into the ground. His 'reason' is he was trying to prevent him from swallowing a sock full of heroin. The violence in that case was clearly not warranted. Point being...just because some cases are abusive doesnt make all cases abusive.

In the Garner case, the officers had made the decision to arrest him. Stop. No need to proceed with the argument. Once a law enforcement officer has made the decision to arrest you, you are going to be arrested. That doesnt mean you are guilty, doesnt mean you will be convicted, but it DOES mean you are under arrest. The SECOND you decide Oh hell no...I'm not either and move to prevent the arrest you are resisting arrest. Its truly that simply. Garner was not beaten down by a pack of cops with dogs and rubber hoses. He was brought to the ground because he resisted arrest. He didnt die because they beat him to death, he died because he was morbidly obese and had a number of associated health problems. He wasnt choked to death. He wasnt beaten to death. He didnt DESERVE death. He died because he resisted arrest and was physically ill.

Not every instance is 'abuse'. Not every instance is NOT abuse.



Was it arrest or detainment.


I agree with your sentiment, that nor every case is abuse. brown wasn't, this was.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

If you are ever involved in an altercation, even as a "peacemaker". And the cops roll up, the first guy that is a problem. Gets hooked up. Period, and if you resist. You get full attention.
Be cool, and you will probably get cut loose right then and there.




again, cops were the aggressors, he wasn't the guy with the problem, he was just standing there.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

the high tax absolutely discourages smoking
it does not end it
but that vice/luxury tax is certainly something which serves as a disincentive to existing and prospective smokers

and just as i fill up in the next state (12 miles away) to save 30c a gallon, those in new york seek out 'discounted' cigarettes, buying them where they were not taxed so significantly (but where gas taxes are among the highest)



When I lived in Saddle River, the gas stations would line up with NY interlopers on weekends, hell they even drove thier kids into our neighborhood on halloween for trick or treating, (which I never got)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

A bit of exaggeration maybe?

I don't think so. By the police officers negligent actions, actions possibly against NYPD rules, the man died.

That's manslaughter or more.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I gotta say I'm surprised by no indictment on this one. This seemed to me definitely out of order. The guy was merely selling ciggies without tax, and although he resisted arrest, he obviously is not a healthy person (obese, breathing heavily), and put him in a chokehold, and the guy says he can't breathe. Oh, my. I find this incident disturbing.

I think he was also asthmatic.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Are you suggesting that a Police Officer didn't know cutting air off from someone wouldn't be lethal? You do understand what a chokehold is, right?

Yep, I know perfectly well was a choke hold is. I also understand that a few seconds isn't enough to do any damage in a healthy person. In fact, for real life threatening damage to occur he would need to have been choked for about 4 minutes (the point when brain damage starts). More likely Gardner's "I can't breathe" had more to do with him being a severe asthmatic with heart disease who couldn't walk a block without needing to rest. His struggle likely triggered his asthma, and laying face down with the weight of officers on top of him exacerbated it.

For a choke hold to be fatal it would have to be applied long enough to cause death (5+ minutes) or with enough force to crush the person's windpipe making it impossible for them to breathe. The "Choke hold" in that video was no where near long enough and the autopsy found no damage to the windpipe.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Remember a Grand Jury only hears what a prosecutor wants and prosecutors don't charge policemen for killing while on duty PERIOD. They are his friends and colleges and it would create bad blood between them. The system is rigged to protect police. Here in Ft. Meyers FL a cop was texting when he ran over and killed a 12 year old on a bike. No charges were filed and the kid was white too. Don't kid yourself. Cops have a license to kill just like 007 did. The scary part is that they know it too.

Sad but true. More evidence of the US police state.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

the high tax absolutely discourages smoking
it does not end it

but that vice/luxury tax is certainly something which serves as a disincentive to existing and prospective smokers

and just as i fill up in the next state (12 miles away) to save 30c a gallon, those in new york seek out 'discounted' cigarettes, buying them where they were not taxed so significantly (but where gas taxes are among the highest)
Most smokers I know merely switched to off-brands (read: cheaper). They didn't quit, or even really slow down. Some did, but they were the exception.

I think the cause & effect of taxes reducing smoking was two-fold: 1) new smokers who weren't as hooked yet stopped, and 2) it discouraged new people from starting, though I think enhanced anti-smoking education and public smoking bans had as much to do with both as taxes, if not more.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes we know Vancemack, play the game of real vs. fake. It allows you to avoid discussing what everyone saw happened in this video. However, for all your distractions, they don't detract from the fact that this guy was being arrested for allegedly selling a few cigarettes. Spare me your support for other cases you feel people were really abused. I don't honestly give much of a **** about your ever changing standards for when black men should be and shouldn't be attacked. I'm surprised you haven't brought up a Malcolm X quote about Democrats or complained about how people aren't discussing black on black violence. It must be because this guy was seen by cops breaking up a fight or you would have jumped on that strategy. Now all you have is the fake vs. real game and I'm really not interested in discussing whether someone should be violently brought down for the terrible crime of being angry that police harass him.




I think this goes much further than this. We see white cop abuse black cop plastered all over the news, unless a white kid does something funny (don't taze me bro), we NEVER hear about it. it's a law enforcment mentality issue, that's transcending race at this point which is what I believe even that sharpton clown is seeing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Keep at it, it gets really fun at blue belt. make sure your school promotes based on ability, not time in grade.

Thanks, and it is based on ability, but with my work hours I can only make there twice a week. I would love to do an extra day a week but we'll see what happens.


Nope, I'd never tap on that hold. where his elbow creases is, his trach has space. also without hooks in, he's got no leverage.

I would wager you have more training and in much better shape than Eric Garner. Someone with asthma could very easily lose their wind with forearm pressure to a hold like that. Aside from that, from my viewpoint, the Officer's forearm is against the neck.



I agree. but I see no reason why garner needed to be "disabled" at that point in the video.

I agree with this as well. Unless Garner was being a clear and present threat to someone (or being charged with a crime) then the Officer shouldn't have had his hands on him in the first place.




yes, grey shirt is attempting the classic escape from the back.

In the picture grey shirt has his hand gripping blue shirt's hand, probably more an attempt to remove the hold or not. Then again this is all on aside
 
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