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Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Officers

Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Lutherf said:
The cameras will be minimally effective if at all. It's another "feel good" idea.

The fact of the matter is that there will always be incidents where the emotional pull for one side or the other will outweigh whatever evidence is presented. There is nothing....absolutely nothing that will change the minds of some folks who believe that Trayvon Martin and/or Mike Brown were murdered. If there was video evidence that Brown punched Wilson, grabbed his gun, and ran back at him there would still be people out there blaming Wilson for stopping him in the first place.

This camera footage will be subpoenaed for everything and anything. Think about it, somebody gets their nose out of joint because they see a cop yelling at a jaywalker and next thing you know the request goes out for his or her camera footage of the incident. The cop didn't do anything wrong but the yelling will be cause for a civil action against the PD for "creating an uncomfortable environment".
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They have been adopted in many places and every report I have seen shows that they had a positive impact. Is there any factual basis for your claims?
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

polgara said:
Greetings, Goshin. :2wave:

:agree: If it takes cameras, then by all means buy them! The only thing that puzzles me is that only 50,000 might be bought to be shared by 650,000 policemen nationwide. I realize that people work in shifts, but that still doesn't seem to be enough, unless they're only to be used in big cities. And would swat teams also get them, or just traffic policemen, etc?
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Yeah, need more like 250,000 at a minimum.

Step in the right direction at least....
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

APACHERAT said:
Start building more prisons because there's going to be more convictions with officers wearing cameras.

It's another liberal idea that will backfire.

How often has liberals /progressives ever been right ? In 1973 libs didn't want to serve in uniform so they ended the draft. Then they didn't want America going to war so they passed the War Powers Act and came up with the "Total Force" policy that the Army couldn't even deploy one combat brigade without calling up the reserves and Guard. How many times has the U.S. Army been deployed into combat since 1973 ? The libs got it wrong again.

What the cameras will reveal, that criminals who don't respect law enforcement who have an attitude problem with cops are going to end up getting their butts whooped when called for and being easily convicted in court and sent to prison. And Al Sharpton and the other race hustlers will be agitating and calling the cameras racist.
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If more real criminals get arrested and convicted (or even better, takes a plea deal because the criminal will know they can't win in court) this liberal and many others will be please. I will also be pleased if there is a reduction in false accusations of misconduct by police. I will also be pleased when charges are dropped against innocent people when the video contradicts the cop's claim of criminal behavior, not only will an innocent person get exonerated, the cost of a trial will be saved.. I will also be pleased when bad cops are caught and kicked off the force, hopefully before the local government has to settle a lawsuit. I will also be pleased when both cops and members of the public interacting with them are on their best behavior because they know that they will be held accountable.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Jango said:
Probably as successful as wringing information out of the federal government -- a 50/50 chance on whether or not they'll comply with the request, as the FOIA has loopholes officials can state when denying a request, and if it goes further I.e. a lawsuit, then all the authorities have to do is say 'national security' and the judge will overwhelmingly side with the officials in censoring information from becoming public knowledge.
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I don't think local law enforcement can pull the "national security" line.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

I'm a little confused as to why the Fed Govt is paying for these - shouldn't it be a state thing? And isn't this coming at just the perfect time? :roll:

That being said - I think it's a good idea. It's not nearly enough to cover the nation's LEOs, but it's a start. To stretch them farther, don't issue one per officer. Issue one per shift. When you sign out at the end of your tour, you turn in your camera to someone in IT, and let them upload the contents onto a hard drive. Then wipe it clean, issue it to the next officer, and so on.

Hopefully the states can get on the bandwagon, too, to help make up for the lack of cameras that the Govt isn't covering.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

gdgyva said:
The White House announced Monday that President Barack Obama will sign an executive order meant to improve training for local law enforcement agencies that receive equipment through federal grant programs. Among the proposed initiatives is a 3-year, $263 million investment package, of which $75 million would go toward covering half the cost of 50,000 officer-mounted cameras -- a technology that has been widely cited as a necessary police reform following the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager shot and killed by Ferguson, Missouri police officer Darren Wilson in August.

Monday's announcement was greeted by some as a victory for transparency in law enforcement. Yet with almost 630,000 police officers working nationwide, it's not clear how much of an effect even 50,000 cameras would have.

Body cameras have long been a popular proposal among police reform advocates, who say that documenting interactions between officers and civilians can help to eliminate bias and uncertainty regarding alleged misconduct by either party. One frequently cited pilot program in Rialto, California, found that between 2012 and 2013, in the first year of the city using police cameras, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent and use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent.

Despite resistance from some police officials and union members who have called the cameras an unnecessary distraction for officers, departments in major cities like Chicago, New York, Minneapolis and Washington, D.C., as well as smaller cities like Ferguson, have started using cameras, or have at least announced plans to do so.

Obama's $75 million program, which still requires congressional approval, would seek to ease the financial burden of outfitting police officers with cameras by providing a 50 percent funding match to states and localities that decide to participate. (Individual cameras cost between $300 and $400, on top of which are the costs associated with storing and maintaining the data recorded by the devices.) But with no ability to compel local police departments to get behind this move, the administration must simply hope that enough law enforcement volunteers are willing to join the program

Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Officers


my question....especially for those who want this

What is the law regarding anything the officer tapes as to whether or not it can be used as evidence against the person being videoed?

Does the person have to be mirandized before anything they say or do can be used against them?

If not, i love the camera idea. It will stop a lot of criminals from getting away with stuff because of technicalities

And yes, they can be used against officers who probably shouldnt be on the force

seems like a win/win......no more cases thrown out
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Long overdue: body cameras and dash cams on every marked squad car and uniformed officer on the road in the United States. Sooner the better.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hamster Buddha said:
I don't think local law enforcement can pull the "national security" line.
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They have their own vernacular that means essentially the same thing but just on a smaller scale -- their state or community as compared to the nation as a whole.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hard Truth said:
They have been adopted in many places and every report I have seen shows that they had a positive impact. Is there any factual basis for your claims?
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It's speculation based on experience. Maybe I'm wrong. Dash cams have been around for a while and haven't been a problem. I don't know that they've really stopped anything bad from happening but the video is there either way. I just don't believe that they're going to solve any problems.

The cops are going to look at the cameras as a way to cover their ass and the social justice vigilantes are going to look at them as a source of propaganda. In neither case is any crime getting reduced nor are community relations getting improved. It's like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. It looks like it should work but it really isn't fixing the underlying problem.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

I do have my reservations when it comes to funding this on a national level, but overall this is pretty great news. Not the end goal in regards to civil reform but definitely a step in the right direction.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

gdgyva said:
The White House announced Monday that President Barack Obama will sign an executive order meant to improve training for local law enforcement agencies that receive equipment through federal grant programs. Among the proposed initiatives is a 3-year, $263 million investment package, of which $75 million would go toward covering half the cost of 50,000 officer-mounted cameras -- a technology that has been widely cited as a necessary police reform following the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager shot and killed by Ferguson, Missouri police officer Darren Wilson in August.

Monday's announcement was greeted by some as a victory for transparency in law enforcement. Yet with almost 630,000 police officers working nationwide, it's not clear how much of an effect even 50,000 cameras would have.

Body cameras have long been a popular proposal among police reform advocates, who say that documenting interactions between officers and civilians can help to eliminate bias and uncertainty regarding alleged misconduct by either party. One frequently cited pilot program in Rialto, California, found that between 2012 and 2013, in the first year of the city using police cameras, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent and use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent.

Despite resistance from some police officials and union members who have called the cameras an unnecessary distraction for officers, departments in major cities like Chicago, New York, Minneapolis and Washington, D.C., as well as smaller cities like Ferguson, have started using cameras, or have at least announced plans to do so.

Obama's $75 million program, which still requires congressional approval, would seek to ease the financial burden of outfitting police officers with cameras by providing a 50 percent funding match to states and localities that decide to participate. (Individual cameras cost between $300 and $400, on top of which are the costs associated with storing and maintaining the data recorded by the devices.) But with no ability to compel local police departments to get behind this move, the administration must simply hope that enough law enforcement volunteers are willing to join the program

Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Officers


my question....especially for those who want this

What is the law regarding anything the officer tapes as to whether or not it can be used as evidence against the person being videoed?

Does the person have to be mirandized before anything they say or do can be used against them?

If not, i love the camera idea. It will stop a lot of criminals from getting away with stuff because of technicalities

And yes, they can be used against officers who probably shouldnt be on the force

seems like a win/win......no more cases thrown out
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What would this improved training teach Officer Wilson that he didn't already know and how would this have saved the suspects life?

Maybe the way we are going is to have police officers let aggressive suspects go to let them terrorize the public.

if we don't want the police to take these people down, they will go after the public. We can't have it both ways.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Helix said:
yep, this needs to happen. it protects the police as much as it protects suspects.
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agreed its a win win and throws accountability in both directions
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Goshin said:
I love you bruh, but I think you're going too partisan on this one. Po-po cams are the wave of the future, and they're going to be a good thing.
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Obama promoted the racism in this case, I'm not the one that's too partisan. I think that's HIS reason for the cams.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hard Truth said:
If more real criminals get arrested and convicted (or even better, takes a plea deal because the criminal will know they can't win in court) this liberal and many others will be please. I will also be pleased if there is a reduction in false accusations of misconduct by police. I will also be pleased when charges are dropped against innocent people when the video contradicts the cop's claim of criminal behavior, not only will an innocent person get exonerated, the cost of a trial will be saved.. I will also be pleased when bad cops are caught and kicked off the force, hopefully before the local government has to settle a lawsuit. I will also be pleased when both cops and members of the public interacting with them are on their best behavior because they know that they will be held accountable.
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I completely agree with all of the upsides you list here. If all of these things can happen, police cams will be a winner all around. I'm also going to be optimistic that the net cost in the end will benefit the taxpayers with the presumption that this will save us a lot of money in trial costs. I don't particularly care for local police being ordered to have them, but if the community thinks there's a need, I'm all for communities paying for them.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

tres borrachos said:
I completely agree with all of the upsides you list here. If all of these things can happen, police cams will be a winner all around. I'm also going to be optimistic that the net cost in the end will benefit the taxpayers with the presumption that this will save us a lot of money in trial costs. I don't particularly care for local police being ordered to have them, but if the community thinks there's a need, I'm all for communities paying for them.
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The main argument against these cameras is that... well... corrupt police departments will be exposed. Even if these departments don't necessarily tone down their use of violence, it's irrelevant. These things can be settled in court and that's what lawsuits are for. The fact that Lutherf tried to pass off a crooked department caught on camera being crooked .... as something negative just made me realize how good of an idea this is.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Lutherf said:
The cameras will be minimally effective if at all. It's another "feel good" idea.

The fact of the matter is that there will always be incidents where the emotional pull for one side or the other will outweigh whatever evidence is presented. There is nothing....absolutely nothing that will change the minds of some folks who believe that Trayvon Martin and/or Mike Brown were murdered. If there was video evidence that Brown punched Wilson, grabbed his gun, and ran back at him there would still be people out there blaming Wilson for stopping him in the first place.

This camera footage will be subpoenaed for everything and anything. Think about it, somebody gets their nose out of joint because they see a cop yelling at a jaywalker and next thing you know the request goes out for his or her camera footage of the incident. The cop didn't do anything wrong but the yelling will be cause for a civil action against the PD for "creating an uncomfortable environment".
Click to expand...

While in the simplest of consideration, these camera's appear to be a reasonable idea, the laws of unintended consequences seem ripe for application here. Should this move forward, it will interesting to see how rules of evidence are interpreted by the courts, and how much the cost of maintaining the system and the evidence, will actually be.

Count on the actual costs being tremendous. Weighed against potential litigation savings, it's hard to estimate where "X" crosses "Y".
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hatuey said:
The main argument against these cameras is that... well... corrupt police departments will be exposed. Even if these departments don't necessarily tone down their use of violence, it's irrelevant. These things can be settled in court and that's what lawsuits are for. The fact that Lutherf tried to pass off a crooked department caught on camera being crooked .... as something negative just made me realize how good of an idea this is.
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As I'm a realist and know that bad cops do exist, I'd love to see something that exposes these bad cops - not only because they deserve exposing, but given that I truly believe the overwhelming majority of cops are NOT bad, this will go a long way toward lessening the too broad "cops are bad" mentality that is permeating in this country. Expose them, address it, do something about them, and let's get back to sanity.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

ocean515 said:
While in the simplest of consideration, these camera's appear to be a reasonable idea, the laws of unintended consequences seem ripe for application here. Should this move forward, it will interesting to see how rules of evidence are interpreted by the courts, and how much the cost of maintaining the system and the evidence, will actually be.

Count on the actual costs being tremendous. Weighed against potential litigation savings, it's hard to estimate where "X" crosses "Y".
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that is my question

what is the law regarding the evidence seen and heard on these cameras

has it been tested in any upper courts

a guy yells at a cop that he didnt mean to kill the dude before he is mirandized.....is it usable in a court of law?

does anyone know the legal ramifications?
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

gdgyva said:
a guy yells at a cop that he didnt mean to kill the dude before he is mirandized.....is it usable in a court of law?
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Yes. This is not a point of contention. You don't need to mirandize someone for something they say to be used as evidence.

A officer can use things someone says to build probable cause to arrest them. Miranda is after they've already been arrested, so the evidence collection has already begun.

In your example, the suspect would be well on their way to conviction.

Miranda just informs you of your rights AFTER you've been arrested.

Whether it is caught on camera or not shouldn't impact that.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hatuey said:
Come again?
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Both making a ton of sense, on both sides...

Those cops apt to be dicks or excessive in force are likely to hold back some if they're on camera at all times.

Similarly...

Those citizens apt to be confrontational or prone to excessively complaining are likel yto hold back if they're on camera at all times.

Both of those factors could play into the reduction in complains and use of force. The one other factor I can think of going into the Use of Force numbers that does give me some pause is the notion of officers possibly hesitating in their use of force more so than before...not because it's a wrongful point of using it, but because of second guessing and worry about what could happen. I know it's not a popular notion on these forums, but I do generally give more benefit of the doubt to officers because of the realities of a job where you're purposefully putting yourself in situations that are dangerous due to the actions of another person and as such I give them more leeway in using their best judgement as to when they need ot defend themselves.

However, despite that issue, I'd still be open to something like this so long as there's benefits that are a two way street...such as described in the OP regarding the use of those cameras as part of criminal investigations.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Hatuey said:
The main argument against these cameras is that... well... corrupt police departments will be exposed. Even if these departments don't necessarily tone down their use of violence, it's irrelevant. These things can be settled in court and that's what lawsuits are for. The fact that Lutherf tried to pass off a crooked department caught on camera being crooked .... as something negative just made me realize how good of an idea this is.
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What "corrupt departments"?!

It's starting to sound like the primary reason for these cameras is to keep cops in check! I've got to ask, how much of this push is really to ferret out crime and how much is pure voyeurism?
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

I don't hate this idea, but I do not see this as the role of the federal government.

Pity they couldn't also be mounted with wifi hotspots and coffee dispensers. Now that would be convenient.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

AliHajiSheik said:
I don't hate this idea, but I do not see this as the role of the federal government.

Pity they couldn't also be mounted with wifi hotspots and coffee dispensers. Now that would be convenient.
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You want to see a cop in charge if dispensing coffee? Maybe on swing shifts but day and night shift, no way in hell that would work.:lol:
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Lutherf said:
You want to see a cop in charge if dispensing coffee? Maybe on swing shifts but day and night shift, no way in hell that would work.:lol:
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If they can put a man on the moon, they can outfit a cop with a coffee dispenser.

If the video becomes public record, could these be the new version of a first person shooter game or perhaps a snuff film. The commercial opportunities are endless :shoot
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

Lutherf said:
What "corrupt departments"?!

It's starting to sound like the primary reason for these cameras is to keep cops in check! I've got to ask, how much of this push is really to ferret out crime and how much is pure voyeurism?
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It's only point is to main an accurate recording of what happens in an incident. If the cop is the one in the wrong, it's even MORE important that it be recorded, no?

We don't know which police department suffer from extensive corruption, because it is easily concealed. The cameras are a measure against that.
 
Re: Obama Wants To Help Buy 50,000 Body Cameras For The Nation's 630,000 Police Offic

tres borrachos said:
I completely agree with all of the upsides you list here. If all of these things can happen, police cams will be a winner all around. I'm also going to be optimistic that the net cost in the end will benefit the taxpayers with the presumption that this will save us a lot of money in trial costs. I don't particularly care for local police being ordered to have them, but if the community thinks there's a need, I'm all for communities paying for them.
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Trials are for TV justice shows - in real life, plea deals are the rule and trials are the exception to the rule. It just may have the opposite effect (and I hope that it does) if police can release the video "facts" after a perp is allowed to plea to much lesser offense than can clearly be seen happening. The biggest problem with our "just us" system is that the courts take too many shortcuts and far too few cases (under 10%?) ever see a trial.

Many look at these cameras as a way to confirm what actually occurred but then what will become of cases that lack this video evidence or when a judge orders that video to remain private? We now seem to expect to have conclusive DNA evidence and a video recording to get a conviction - if the glove doesn't fit then you must acquit will even be more likely to rule.
 
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