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The St. Louis Rams’ ‘Hands Up, Don’t Shoot’ Protest [W:256]

VanceMack said:
A handful die in confrontations with cops. Just as in Ferguson, most of those cases are caused not by the cop but by the aggressor. Mike Brown was the aggressor-the witnesses and evidence supports that as a fact. You have your panties twisted because Mike Brown was killed by a cop? Now...conversely...10,000 black people are killed by blacks around the country. A small handful...10,000....and the only time people 'care' iswhen it is by a cop. Hell...you dont even care if it is a righteous shoot...as long as you have something to cry about.

Did Mike Brown have his 'hands up'? Was he pleading 'dont shoot'? Did the cop execute him?
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I am far more concerned about government power than I am about gangbangers. Even if it wasn't a "righteous shoot" half of the "libertarians" in this thread would be defending it.

We don't know all of the circumstances or facts about the Brown shooting. I used to think you were smart enough to realize that.
 
rocket88 said:
I am far more concerned about government power than I am about gangbangers. Even if it wasn't a "righteous shoot" half of the "libertarians" in this thread would be defending it.

We don't know all of the circumstances or facts about the Brown shooting. I used to think you were smart enough to realize that.
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Oh but we DO know the facts as presented by several eyewitnesses supported by the actual forensics evidence, dont we? And backed by the autopsies (you know...the ones conducted by the state, the fed, AND by a coroner in the Brown family employ) which also support the officers version as corroborated by several witnesses.

So...your pathetic dodge aside...Did Mike Brown have his 'hands up'? Was he pleading 'dont shoot'? Did the cop execute him?

Funny how you refuse to answer the most basic of questions. Hell, Rocket...you can even answer them based on your 'belief'.
 
rocket88 said:
I am far more concerned about government power than I am about gangbangers. Even if it wasn't a "righteous shoot" half of the "libertarians" in this thread would be defending it.

We don't know all of the circumstances or facts about the Brown shooting. I used to think you were smart enough to realize that.
Click to expand...

What are we missing specifically?
 
tres borrachos said:
What are we missing specifically?
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Everything that supports his 'beliefs'.

The 'Rocket' way.
Rocket-We must have reform because of abuse by police officers! Look! They shot me and I was innocently minding my own business. I even had my hands up and begged for my life and he still gunned me down in broad daylight.
Mindless protesters-What? Thats outrageous! We must protest and riot until this cop is brought to justice! Hands up, dont shoot! Hands up, dont shoot!
Rocket-I know, right?
Mindless protesters-Wait...the grand jury didnt indict him? Riot! Burn this bitch down! How could they not indict him? This only goes to prove the abuse of our young black men!
Rocket-Ummmmm....well...to be honest...they didnt REALLY kill me like I said.
Public-Whut?!!!
Rocket-No...I mean...IM still dead...but see...it turns out that I robbed a guy, tossed him around, walked down the middle of the street, told the responding officer to **** off, then attacked him while he was seated in his car. He warned me to stop while I was hitting him in the head, but I ignored it. He told me he was going to shoot but I told him he was too much of a ***** to shoot. Then he shot me, the asshole. So, you know...I ran a bit...but then decided **** it and charged him at which time he shot me several more times.
Public-wait...that kinda seems like it was YOUR fault.
Rocket-No way man...police brutality! End the military weapons!
Mindless protesters-wait...what military weapons?
Rocket-Well...you know...after it happened we stirred up a bunch of **** and set buildings on fire and the cops...can you believe it...THEY actually RESPONDED to our rioting, blocking streets, robbing, looting, and destruction.
Mindless protesters-Those bastards! Attica! Attica!
Observer speaking truth-Ummm...fellas...the evidence proves everything he said was a lie
Rocket and Mindless protesters-So what man! Its just like...a belief, you know?
And it all works as long as you have stupid people going along with your stupid lies.
 
mike2810 said:
Wonder what those players position is on domestic violence and child abuse. I don't recall them making any jester about those incidents that involve NFL players.
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Exactly. Let's see the "Hands up Don't Shoot" for the pregnant girlfriend of Rae Carruth.

Or the victims of Aaron Hernandez.
 
tres borrachos said:
I have never seen the "libertarian position" of "It's okay to perpetuate a lie". Never. Show me where libertarians support lies.

The officers issued a statement because the players lied. Their gesture implied - incorrectly - that the SLPD goes around shooting black men who have their hands up in surrender. The SLPD wasn't making a political statement - they were defending themselves against lies. You can't understand that.
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Libertarians can and do lie, but that's irrelevant to this. What happened in Ferguson is still a matter of dispute; there are still conflicting witness testimonies; but that, too, is irrelevant. The "hands up" gesture is a broader political statement protesting the treatment of citizens by police, the abuse of authority, and the double-standard of justice. Ferguson's unrest is a symptom of a much larger social ailment, and that is what these protests are really about.
 
VanceMack said:
Everything that supports his 'beliefs'.

The 'Rocket' way.
Rocket-We must have reform because of abuse by police officers! Look! They shot me and I was innocently minding my own business. I even had my hands up and begged for my life and he still gunned me down in broad daylight.
Mindless protesters-What? Thats outrageous! We must protest and riot until this cop is brought to justice! Hands up, dont shoot! Hands up, dont shoot!
Rocket-I know, right?
Mindless protesters-Wait...the grand jury didnt indict him? Riot! Burn this bitch down! How could they not indict him? This only goes to prove the abuse of our young black men!
Rocket-Ummmmm....well...to be honest...they didnt REALLY kill me like I said.
Public-Whut?!!!
Rocket-No...I mean...IM still dead...but see...it turns out that I robbed a guy, tossed him around, walked down the middle of the street, told the responding officer to **** off, then attacked him while he was seated in his car. He warned me to stop while I was hitting him in the head, but I ignored it. He told me he was going to shoot but I told him he was too much of a ***** to shoot. Then he shot me, the asshole. So, you know...I ran a bit...but then decided **** it and charged him at which time he shot me several more times.
Public-wait...that kinda seems like it was YOUR fault.
Rocket-No way man...police brutality! End the military weapons!
Mindless protesters-wait...what military weapons?
Rocket-Well...you know...after it happened we stirred up a bunch of **** and set buildings on fire and the cops...can you believe it...THEY actually RESPONDED to our rioting, blocking streets, robbing, looting, and destruction.
Mindless protesters-Those bastards! Attica! Attica!
Observer speaking truth-Ummm...fellas...the evidence proves everything he said was a lie
Rocket and Mindless protesters-So what man! Its just like...a belief, you know?
And it all works as long as you have stupid people going along with your stupid lies.
Click to expand...

Is it all flaming and strawmen with you, or do you actually have something to add to the conversation?
 
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VanceMack said:
Oh but we DO know the facts as presented by several eyewitnesses supported by the actual forensics evidence, dont we? And backed by the autopsies (you know...the ones conducted by the state, the fed, AND by a coroner in the Brown family employ) which also support the officers version as corroborated by several witnesses.

So...your pathetic dodge aside...Did Mike Brown have his 'hands up'? Was he pleading 'dont shoot'? Did the cop execute him?

Funny how you refuse to answer the most basic of questions. Hell, Rocket...you can even answer them based on your 'belief'.
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Were you there?
 
rocket88 said:
Were you there?
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Nope. I DO however have a computer and access to the facts. I know for example as a FACT that the people that spread the "hands up dont shoot' lie were in fact lying. I know they have recanted their testimony. I know several have been PROVEN to have been physically incapable to witness what they claim they witnessed. I know several made declarative eyewitness statements, then when told the physical and forensics made it impossible for their statements to be true, later admitted that they reported what they knew then filled in the rest with what they heard or from their own personal bias. I know one of the loudest mouths that said she witnessed the shooting, especially the hands up dont shoot phase was recorded pulling up to the scene 8 minutes after it occurred. Conversely, I know 3 independently conducted autopsies from 3 separate agencies representing the state, the fed, and the family of Mike Brown all corroborate the account as provided by officer wilson. I know that 7 eyewitnesses (that happen to be black) provided testimony prior to the grand jury and the disclosure of forensic evidence that corroborated the officers statement AND were supported by the physical evidence provided.

No...Rocket. I wasnt there. I have to rely on facts, not bull**** lies that support my own personal bias.

And why wont you answer those 3 very direct questions?
Did Mike Brown have his 'hands up'? Was he pleading 'dont shoot'? Did the cop execute him?
 
rocket88 said:
Is it all flaming and strawmen with you, or do you actually have something to add to the conversation?
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The facts speak for themselves, dont they?

Why wont you answer 3 very direct questions, based on your 'beliefs'?
 
VanceMack said:
Nope. I DO however have a computer and access to the facts. I know for example as a FACT that the people that spread the "hands up dont shoot' lie were in fact lying. I know they have recanted their testimony. I know several have been PROVEN to have been physically incapable to witness what they claim they witnessed. I know several made declarative eyewitness statements, then when told the physical and forensics made it impossible for their statements to be true, later admitted that they reported what they knew then filled in the rest with what they heard or from their own personal bias. I know one of the loudest mouths that said she witnessed the shooting, especially the hands up dont shoot phase was recorded pulling up to the scene 8 minutes after it occurred. Conversely, I know 3 independently conducted autopsies from 3 separate agencies representing the state, the fed, and the family of Mike Brown all corroborate the account as provided by officer wilson. I know that 7 eyewitnesses (that happen to be black) provided testimony prior to the grand jury and the disclosure of forensic evidence that corroborated the officers statement AND were supported by the physical evidence provided.

No...Rocket. I wasnt there. I have to rely on facts, not bull**** lies that support my own personal bias.

And why wont you answer those 3 very direct questions?
Did Mike Brown have his 'hands up'? Was he pleading 'dont shoot'? Did the cop execute him?
Click to expand...

You weren't there, therefore you don't know what happened.

The answers to your questions are all "I don't know, and neither do you." I guess they're only "facts" when they support what you want to hear. You say you're relying on facts and not lies that support your own bias, but you weren't there, you don't know what happened and you choose to believe these "facts" because they support your bias.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Libertarians can and do lie, but that's irrelevant to this. What happened in Ferguson is still a matter of dispute; there are still conflicting witness testimonies; but that, too, is irrelevant. The "hands up" gesture is a broader political statement protesting the treatment of citizens by police, the abuse of authority, and the double-standard of justice. Ferguson's unrest is a symptom of a much larger social ailment, and that is what these protests are really about.
Click to expand...
Are they really? Why then do they not say that but instead disrupt vandalize and cry about the lack of an indictment? Does anyone anywhere really believe that as a result of these "protests" somehow the GJ will change its mind and indict officer Willson?
 
prometeus said:
Are they really? Why then do they not say that but instead disrupt vandalize and cry about the lack of an indictment? Does anyone anywhere really believe that as a result of these "protests" somehow the GJ will change its mind and indict officer Willson?
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I think what they are hoping for is to force the DA to re-open the case, issue new charges based on new evidence with a new GJ, one that will only come up with an indictment. Whether or not that is possible or probable is the next question.... and I don't know.
 
rocket88 said:
You weren't there, therefore you don't know what happened.

The answers to your questions are all "I don't know, and neither do you." I guess they're only "facts" when they support what you want to hear. You say you're relying on facts and not lies that support your own bias, but you weren't there, you don't know what happened and you choose to believe these "facts" because they support your bias.
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Yes...I choose to believe witness testimony supported by the facts (forensics and autopsy reports). Your comments are desperate and silly.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Libertarians can and do lie, but that's irrelevant to this. What happened in Ferguson is still a matter of dispute; there are still conflicting witness testimonies; but that, too, is irrelevant. The "hands up" gesture is a broader political statement protesting the treatment of citizens by police, the abuse of authority, and the double-standard of justice. Ferguson's unrest is a symptom of a much larger social ailment, and that is what these protests are really about.
Click to expand...

Wut? Who said anything about libertarians lying? That isn't what I asked you to show.

Show me where it's part of the libertarian platform to condone lies.

"Hands up" is a gesture related to Michael Brown, who didn't have his hands up. You and I both know that.
 
rocket88 said:
You weren't there, therefore you don't know what happened.

The answers to your questions are all "I don't know, and neither do you." I guess they're only "facts" when they support what you want to hear. You say you're relying on facts and not lies that support your own bias, but you weren't there, you don't know what happened and you choose to believe these "facts" because they support your bias.
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You weren't there when Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz, so does that mean it didn't happen? You weren't at Fort Hood the day some idiot went on a shooting rampage; does that mean someone else may have done it? You weren't at the Bundy Ranch when people were there protesting; does that mean all the accounts the media presented didn't happen?
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Libertarians can and do lie, but that's irrelevant to this. What happened in Ferguson is still a matter of dispute; there are still conflicting witness testimonies; but that, too, is irrelevant. The "hands up" gesture is a broader political statement protesting the treatment of citizens by police, the abuse of authority, and the double-standard of justice. Ferguson's unrest is a symptom of a much larger social ailment, and that is what these protests are really about.
Click to expand...

They want a new reality where a mom doesn't have to worry about her child getting killed while attacking a police officer.
 
tres borrachos said:
You weren't there when Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz, so does that mean it didn't happen? You weren't at Fort Hood the day some idiot went on a shooting rampage; does that mean someone else may have done it? You weren't at the Bundy Ranch when people were there protesting; does that mean all the accounts the media presented didn't happen?
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Nobody's saying Michael Brown didn't die. But we don't know all the particulars like what led to the shooting, just like we don't know the circumstances of every death at Auschwitz. We know that a bunch of people showed up at Bundy's ranch, but we don't know why they all were there. A few of those people were a couple of bullets short of a full clip, so who knows with them.

What we have is one person's story and nothing to contradict it. So while not prosecuting him was probably the best decision, different people always have different sides of the story.
 
jmotivator said:
They want a new reality where a mom doesn't have to worry about her child getting killed while attacking a police officer.
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That's just as silly as someone saying that you want a new reality show where cops hunt black teenagers for sport.
 
prometeus said:
Are they really? Why then do they not say that but instead disrupt vandalize and cry about the lack of an indictment? Does anyone anywhere really believe that as a result of these "protests" somehow the GJ will change its mind and indict officer Willson?
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When did the Rams receivers disrupt, vandalize and cry? Surely you're not equating this peaceful protest with the riots in Missouri? And no, I don't think this about reopening the case in Mo., though surely many would welcome that. This is about the larger issue of racial profiling and distrust between the community and the police force.
 
tres borrachos said:
Wut? Who said anything about libertarians lying? That isn't what I asked you to show.

Show me where it's part of the libertarian platform to condone lies.

"Hands up" is a gesture related to Michael Brown, who didn't have his hands up. You and I both know that.
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You have got to be kidding me. You can't even prove that "hands up" is a lie, let alone extrapolate from that to say that all who protest are liars. And libertarians are not immune to lying. I'm not sure you live in the same reality I do.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
When did the Rams receivers disrupt, vandalize and cry? Surely you're not equating this peaceful protest with the riots in Missouri? And no, I don't think this about reopening the case in Mo., though surely many would welcome that. This is about the larger issue of racial profiling and distrust between the community and the police force.
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I don't know about vandalize, but the entire Rams team raped the Raiders....
 
jmotivator said:
They want a new reality where a mom doesn't have to worry about her child getting killed while attacking a police officer.
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No. They want fair treatment by the police. This isn't about a pass for criminals. This is about not gunning down people in the street. Ferguson, in my opinion, is one of the leas egregious examples of reckless policing. We've had two such shooting in Ohio involving legal airsoft guns. This has to stop.

This is what people are protesting.

And another link
 
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GhostlyJoe said:
You have got to be kidding me. You can't even prove that "hands up" is a lie, let alone extrapolate from that to say that all who protest are liars. And libertarians are not immune to lying. I'm not sure you live in the same reality I do.
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As was already stated, the act of mimicking the "hands up don't shoot" was and is based on a lie. That didn't happen. If the RAMS players want to mimick a lie they are free to do so - they have free speech to make themselves look silly all they want. The NFL and the RAMS organization have come out saying they will not impede nor punish the players for doing so and that's fine by me.
 
rocket88 said:
I don't know about vandalize, but the entire Rams team raped the Raiders....
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It was a brutal beating -- hard to feel bad for the Raiders though :)
 
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