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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

Re: The next Ferguson ?

mac said:
Some BB guns do, most do not. Most airsoft guns do. I don't understand why this is arguable.
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So you agree that he may have had very realistic looking "toy" gun.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

CRUE CAB said:
So you agree that he may have had very realistic looking "toy" gun.
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Uhm, yeah. I posted a picture of the gun he had. It looks exactly like a 1911.

mac said:
This is the gun Tamir Rice was holding. It looks exactly like a 1911A1 .45 acp, which is a very serious handgun. If someone pointed that at me, I'd shoot them.

View attachment 67176416
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

CRUE CAB said:
Long slide.
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Something tells me you're argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

There are 1911s with longer than normal slides.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

mac said:
Something tells me you're argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

There are 1911s with longer than normal slides.
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Yes, and that is a Long Slide replica. But I have never seen a Long Slide from either Colt or AMT with a rail ahead of the trigger guard. Don't know how that is argumentative.
In fact, I would probably have hesitated firing if I got a quick look at the profile of the gun knowing that in real life that gun don't exist.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

CRUE CAB said:
Yes, and that is a Long Slide replica. But I have never seen a Long Slide from either Colt or AMT with a rail ahead of the trigger guard. Don't know how that is argumentative.
In fact, I would probably have hesitated firing if I got a quick look at the profile of the gun knowing that in real life that gun don't exist.
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Springfield makes one just like it. It's called the Operator.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Here's the video....

Study long, study wrong. Good shoot. Sad, but good.

Read 'em and weep.... seriously.

 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Captain America said:
Here's the video....

Study long, study wrong. Good shoot. Sad, but good.

Read 'em and weep.... seriously.

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Absolutely NOT a good shoot. Two seconds pass between the time police arrive until the time he is down. The police have to make judgment calls, true. But they have to be held accountable for bad calls. They didn't have time to properly assess the situation or the threat. Police are paid to put themselves in harm's way and protect people like this boy; not fire first based on assumptions. Someone needs to made accountable for this child's death.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

So I didn't read through all 40 pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been brought up, but am I the only one that thinks it strange that two cops show up in a car to investigate a "person with a gun", why would they approach within just a few feet and jump out of the car? I mean, if it was a kid with a gun that wanted to shoot, didn't the police inject themselves right into an incredibly dangerous situation? Think about how vulnerable the rookie cop was while trying to exit the car.

Shouldn't they have approached at a greater distance where they could have attempted communication with the suspect in order to gather greater intelligence and assess the situation given that he wasn't threading anyone and no one appeared to be in his immediate vicinity?

In my opinion the mistake seems to have been made by the veteran officer who put his partner in incredible danger, face to face, with a person who could have had a gun with violent intent.

The gun, real or not, orange tipped or not, the boy's actions are all irrelevant. The mistake was diving into such a potentially dangerous situation rather than approaching from a reasonable distance (maybe the street in the video?) where both the officers would have been reasonably safe and able to talk the the person rather than shoot first and ask questions later....

Unbelievable.
 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

csbrown28 said:
So I didn't read through all 40 pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been brought up, but am I the only one that thinks it strange that two cops show up in a car to investigate a "person with a gun", why would they approach within just a few feet and jump out of the car? I mean, if it was a kid with a gun that wanted to shoot, didn't the police inject themselves right into an incredibly dangerous situation?

Shouldn't they have approached at a greater distance where they could have attempted communication with the suspect in order to gather greater intelligence and assess the situation given that he wasn't threading anyone and no one appeared to be in his immediate vicinity?

In my opinion the mistake seems to have been made by the veteran officer who put his partner in incredible danger, face to face, with a person who could have had a gun with violent intent.

Unbelievable.
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If this is police protocol, then that alone is cause for protest. I want to know that police departments are responding to this rash of shootings with new protocols and new prevention measures. This "the cops did nothing wrong" that some are taking is horribly irresponsible.

Let's keep in mind too that carrying a registered firearm is LEGAL in the state of Ohio. We need to change this confrontational approach to policing.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

GhostlyJoe said:
If this is police protocol, then that alone is cause for protest. I want to know that police departments are responding to this rash of shootings with new protocols and new prevention measures. This "the cops did nothing wrong" that some are taking is horribly irresponsible.

Let's keep in mind too that carrying a registered firearm is LEGAL in the state of Ohio. We need to change this confrontational approach to policing.
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Police have a duty to protect the public and themselves, but they also have a reasonable responsibility to protect the people they are responding to. Sometimes those people are good people with families, grandmothers and children.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

We got some of that police shooting stuff going on here in Milwaukee too. The Police Chief pretty much expresses many of my views as well.

This is sad. It's beyond sad. I heart just melts when I think of the loss and suffrage.

There are so many "what-if's," that can be conceived when your watching Sunday's game tapes on Monday. I bet those cops will be pondering into their old age, "what if I had done this instead." I'm just glad I don't have their job.

But don't get me wrong. Bad cops piss me off too. But I also happen to know that good cops get pissed off at bad cops even more than I do. Baby/Bathwater.

People are quick to fall on the side away from authority. I am guilty of that myself. I have posted a few "bad cop on video," posts myself.

But sometimes, tragic results transpire whatever spontaneous actions/reactions people take. Should the cop go against the training he has been given in regards to potentially lethal encounters, (like he/she had the luxury to think it through, OR he/she had a crystal ball,) and took a bullet to the head instead, that would have been just as sad. But given the choices, I think I would error on the side of caution too. It would be great if we could all get it right all the time.

But the focus is on demeaning the only thing that is really trying to make a difference. It's time we should start talking about the "true threats," facing our African-American brother's and sister's if we are, at all, truly concerned as to their well being. We're chastising the band-aid, all the while, ignoring the infection.

But, if anything positive does come out of all this lime-lighted police situations it might be to get America's attention that our police forces are becoming more and more regimented and militarized. I can understand why. But we need to implement the training to our protector's, that will make them realize that we "civillians," are not the Taliban. We are not the enemy. There needs to be more of that taught in their training. This "alpha-male," bully attitude is very unappealing. We pay their salary. (Albeit, not enough.)

Hail to the Chief. Tell it like it is.

 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

Captain America said:
We got some of that police shooting stuff going on here in Milwaukee too. The Police Chief pretty much expresses many of my views as well.

This is sad. It's beyond sad. I heart just melts when I think of the loss and suffrage.

There are so many "what-if's," that can be conceived when your watching Sunday's game tapes on Monday. I bet those cops will be pondering into their old age, "what if I had done this instead." I'm just glad I don't have their job.

But don't get me wrong. Bad cops piss me off too. But I also happen to know that good cops get pissed off at bad cops even more than I do. Baby/Bathwater.

People are quick to fall on the side away from authority. I am guilty of that myself. I have posted a few "bad cop on video," posts myself.

But sometimes, tragic results transpire whatever spontaneous actions/reactions people take. Should the cop go against the training he has been given in regards to potentially lethal encounters, (like he/she had the luxury to think it through, OR he/she had a crystal ball,) and took a bullet to the head instead, that would have been just as sad. But given the choices, I think I would error on the side of caution too. It would be great if we could all get it right all the time.

But the focus is on demeaning the only thing that is really trying to make a difference. It's time we should start talking about the "true threats," facing our African-American brother's and sister's if we are, at all, truly concerned as to their well being. We're chastising the band-aid, all the while, ignoring the infection.

But, if anything positive does come out of all this lime-lighted police situations it might be to get America's attention that our police forces are becoming more and more regimented and militarized. I can understand why. But we need to implement the training to our protector's, that will make them realize that we "civillians," are not the Taliban. We are not the enemy. There needs to be more of that taught in their training. This "alpha-male," bully attitude is very unappealing. We pay their salary. (Albeit, not enough.)

Hail to the Chief. Tell it like it is.

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This is a thoughtful post, but I disagree with much of its underlying reasoning. I don't deny that police have to make difficult decisions in life-threatening situations, but I firmly believe that authority must be wielded responsibly, and that means the police must be held accountable for the outcome of their tactics. In this particular case, aggressive policing led directly to the tragic outcome. The boy may have appeared to be a threat, but in reality he was not. If the police approached more calmly and with a bias toward preventing confrontation, no one gets hurt. I don't know what police training tells an officer to do. But what plays out on that video is a travesty. Authority needs to be wielded with restraint. This was reckless.

Extend your own logic -- that second-guessing is unfair -- to anyone charted with involuntary manslaughter. Let's at least hold police to the same standard of justice we hold our own citizens, if not a higher standard.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

GhostlyJoe said:
This is a thoughtful post, but I disagree with much of its underlying reasoning. I don't deny that police have to make difficult decisions in life-threatening situations, but I firmly believe that authority must be wielded responsibly, and that means the police must be held accountable for the outcome of their tactics. In this particular case, aggressive policing led directly to the tragic outcome. The boy may have appeared to be a threat, but in reality he was not. If the police approached more calmly and with a bias toward preventing confrontation, no one gets hurt. I don't know what police training tells an officer to do. But what plays out on that video is a travesty. Authority needs to be wielded with restraint. This was reckless.

Extend your own logic -- that second-guessing is unfair -- to anyone charted with involuntary manslaughter. Let's at least hold police to the same standard of justice we hold our own citizens, if not a higher standard.
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Very good points. I am the last to suggest that we do not hold our gun totin' authorities to a high standard. But let us not forget that the resource pool is human and the odds are that these people put their lives in harms way, probably more in one day, than most folks do, in a lifetime. And, the more you roll the dice, the more odds you have of crapping out, than the man who does not roll at all. If these cops weren't placed in these kinds of situations, as often as they are these days, there would not be this many incidents. It's a matter of ratio. Numbers.

Sure. Put them under the microscope and scrutinize. By all means. I am just asking that we all not forget that we walk in a totally different pair of shoes than they do. Consider all things. Let's at least try to contain our urges to "stick it to the man," by considering all sides.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

GhostlyJoe said:
Absolutely NOT a good shoot.
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Can we not use that phrase?


Two seconds pass between the time police arrive until the time he is down....
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I don't think we can make a viable judgment based on a grainy video.

Again, the entire incident needs to be reviewed. Snap judgments don't help that process.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Visbek said:
Can we not use that phrase?



I don't think we can make a viable judgment based on a grainy video.

Again, the entire incident needs to be reviewed. Snap judgments don't help that process.
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Snap judgments caused this child's death. I'm not sure what you saw on that video, but I saw a kid walking around a gazebo, the cops pull up and 2 seconds later -- snap -- the boy is down.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Captain America said:
We got some of that police shooting stuff going on here in Milwaukee too. The Police Chief pretty much expresses many of my views as well.

This is sad. It's beyond sad. I heart just melts when I think of the loss and suffrage.

There are so many "what-if's," that can be conceived when your watching Sunday's game tapes on Monday. I bet those cops will be pondering into their old age, "what if I had done this instead." I'm just glad I don't have their job.

But don't get me wrong. Bad cops piss me off too. But I also happen to know that good cops get pissed off at bad cops even more than I do. Baby/Bathwater.

People are quick to fall on the side away from authority. I am guilty of that myself. I have posted a few "bad cop on video," posts myself.

But sometimes, tragic results transpire whatever spontaneous actions/reactions people take. Should the cop go against the training he has been given in regards to potentially lethal encounters, (like he/she had the luxury to think it through, OR he/she had a crystal ball,) and took a bullet to the head instead, that would have been just as sad. But given the choices, I think I would error on the side of caution too. It would be great if we could all get it right all the time.

But the focus is on demeaning the only thing that is really trying to make a difference. It's time we should start talking about the "true threats," facing our African-American brother's and sister's if we are, at all, truly concerned as to their well being. We're chastising the band-aid, all the while, ignoring the infection.

But, if anything positive does come out of all this lime-lighted police situations it might be to get America's attention that our police forces are becoming more and more regimented and militarized. I can understand why. But we need to implement the training to our protector's, that will make them realize that we "civillians," are not the Taliban. We are not the enemy. There needs to be more of that taught in their training. This "alpha-male," bully attitude is very unappealing. We pay their salary. (Albeit, not enough.)

Hail to the Chief. Tell it like it is.

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I posted this somewhere else, but you brought it up and I thought it applied here as well. You ask why our police forces are becoming more militarized. Look at their applicants. I've been in the Marine Corps for going on 16 years. In only 2 of those have we not been at war. During those 16 years, I've seen many a Marine come and go. A lot of them, upon honorable discharge, apply to their local LE entity whether it be city/county/state/federal. Now, those are the guys on the street. Those are the guys that are planning operations. I'm not saying we have a bunch of testosterone laden, PTSD ridden vets running rampant on our streets. What I'm saying is you have a bunch of guys who's idea of policing is kicking the door in and taking down bad guys. Right or wrong, that's how they were trained and most LE units do nothing to change that idea. Add that to the fact that our federal gov't gives away MRAPs, body armor, optics, NVG's, etc like they're candy to whatever podunk police dept wants them and you have a militant police force. These aren't the end all be all answers to your questions, but I believe they are big factors.

On a lighter note, I for real thought that black chick on the left side of the screen shot for your video was wearing a flower for a hat lol. I had to double take.

Further edit: I didn't watch the video prior to posting my original statement. That guy is awesome. Great speech and so true. I said this before. If the black community would concentrate on fixing black on black crime, childbirth out of wedlock, low graduation rates, high unemployment rates, etc, etc within their ranks, the rest of the country might listen to them. But when they off themselves in record numbers and then turn on a single cop when he protects himself, no one wants to hear it. Is Michael Brown's life now more important because a white cop shot him vice the thousands of black people that were shot by other black people? I don't think so. Apparently they do.
 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

GhostlyJoe said:
This is a thoughtful post, but I disagree with much of its underlying reasoning. I don't deny that police have to make difficult decisions in life-threatening situations, but I firmly believe that authority must be wielded responsibly, and that means the police must be held accountable for the outcome of their tactics. In this particular case, aggressive policing led directly to the tragic outcome. The boy may have appeared to be a threat, but in reality he was not. If the police approached more calmly and with a bias toward preventing confrontation, no one gets hurt. I don't know what police training tells an officer to do. But what plays out on that video is a travesty. Authority needs to be wielded with restraint. This was reckless.

Extend your own logic -- that second-guessing is unfair -- to anyone charted with involuntary manslaughter. Let's at least hold police to the same standard of justice we hold our own citizens, if not a higher standard.
Click to expand...

Have you ever been in a shootout?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

GhostlyJoe said:
Snap judgments caused this child's death. I'm not sure what you saw on that video, but I saw a kid walking around a gazebo, the cops pull up and 2 seconds later -- snap -- the boy is down.
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Really?!? That's all you saw?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

All part of the gun culture claiming another life whether one thinks the kid was at fault or the cops are at fault.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

MarineTpartier said:
I posted this somewhere else, but you brought it up and I thought it applied here as well. You ask why our police forces are becoming more militarized. Look at their applicants. I've been in the Marine Corps for going on 16 years. In only 2 of those have we not been at war. During those 16 years, I've seen many a Marine come and go. A lot of them, upon honorable discharge, apply to their local LE entity whether it be city/county/state/federal. Now, those are the guys on the street. Those are the guys that are planning operations. I'm not saying we have a bunch of testosterone laden, PTSD ridden vets running rampant on our streets. What I'm saying is you have a bunch of guys who's idea of policing is kicking the door in and taking down bad guys. Right or wrong, that's how they were trained and most LE units do nothing to change that idea. Add that to the fact that our federal gov't gives away MRAPs, body armor, optics, NVG's, etc like they're candy to whatever podunk police dept wants them and you have a militant police force. These aren't the end all be all answers to your questions, but I believe they are big factors.

On a lighter note, I for real thought that black chick on the left side of the screen shot for your video was wearing a flower for a hat lol. I had to double take.

Further edit: I didn't watch the video prior to posting my original statement. That guy is awesome. Great speech and so true. I said this before. If the black community would concentrate on fixing black on black crime, childbirth out of wedlock, low graduation rates, high unemployment rates, etc, etc within their ranks, the rest of the country might listen to them. But when they off themselves in record numbers and then turn on a single cop when he protects himself, no one wants to hear it. Is Michael Brown's life now more important because a white cop shot him vice the thousands of black people that were shot by other black people? I don't think so. Apparently they do.
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You might be surprised to know that the Police Union have him in their sights due to a recent discipline action taken by the Chief against the officer that shot a mentally challenged homeless man, in a park, for trying to assault him. Don't know all the details but I am hearing very valid arguments from both sides.

Therein lies another problem. Back to the "Us and Them," perception discussed earlier. We are not the Taliban. They are not Seal Team 6. They instinctively "circle the wagons," when one of their own is on the carpet. Right or wrong. I understand why. They are, after all, a union. Their obligation is to the employee and not the management. But it would seem to me that a collective unit of good cops, as I believe them most to be, would work harder than anyone to rid the bad cops from their ranks. And I'm sure there's a unit for that as well. The public perception is that the line of the law goes from the Meter Maid, through the street cop, to the department heads, through the district's prosecution's office all the way to the bench. It's hard to trust that, this connected stream of professionals, or any stream of professionals for that matter, who instinctively "circle the wagons," could fairly approach such sensitive matters, concerning justice against their own connected stream, from the ground up, could render any punitive actions with any balance of fairness.

As mentioned earlier, it is automatically assumed that a police officer's word is always considered to be above your's or mine.

We need to work on this "Us and Them" perception. It's going to take equal effort from "us," and "them," to even hope that would work.
 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

apdst said:
Have you ever been in a shootout?
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No. Have the officers on the tape every been in one? Because no one was firing back at them in this case.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

mac said:
BB guns tend to not look like actual firearms. Airsoft guns usually look like actual firearms. Of course that only means anything to people that know what actual firearms look like.
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I have some pellet pistols-that from 10 feet away, I cannot tell apart from the firearms they copy

only the size of the bore is a give away and since lots of service pistols have 22 caliber training counterparts-that makes it even tougher

examples

KWC Tanfoglio Witness 1911 CO2 BB Pistol, Brown Grips. Air guns

Air Pistols: Beretta PX4 Storm

Smith & Wesson Smith & Wesson M&P, Black. Air guns - PyramydAir.com
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Yeah the kid had maybe 0.5 second to react to what was going on.
Police story doesn't seem to match surveillance video.
as is so often the case, sadly, maddingly
 
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