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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

Re: The next Ferguson ?

Bodhisattva said:
By that retarded context everybody is a bigot. At the very least you are a bigot against bigots. That said, I am not against all cops. Your attempt to paint me such is idiotic and if this is all you have, pathetic attempts to demean others then good for you. I will be moving on to others that actually debate though...



That you clearly are incapable of understanding...



Sure... good excuse, coward who still hasn't manned up. :lol:

You probably spent that hour looking for and FAILING to find actual bigoted remarks by me...
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I don't know about everyone...just you. You are bigoted towards cops. Your own words 'testify'. Spin it how you like...but you are what you are. If it makes you uncomfortable...so be it.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It didn't occur to me initially but it has been for a bit now hence the change in my posts, if you noticed. This case I jumped the gun (pun intended) and cast negatives on the cops when it was just a ****ty situation. I am going to call... my bad.
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Wait...what???


:)
 
Jetboogieman said:
These situations are really ****.

I feel for the kids parents, no parent should have to bury their child.

And I feel for the officer involved, there's no way he started his day off wishing he'd get to kill an innocent kid.

But firearms calls have to be taken so seriously because of the day and age we live in.
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What makes today different?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Like I said to Visbek... my bad. The cop was given a crappy scenario and the kid put himself in a bad way. The cop should not have to wait for shots fired in a situation like that one... the many cop shootings that are much more obvious just piss me off so whenever it happens now I blame the cop first and I need to stop doing that.
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For what it is worth, I respect the heck out of that.
 
Gaius46 said:
Doesn't answer the question as to why on earth would the cop assume a 12 year old kid has a real gun? And honestly if the cop is that scared he needs to get a different job.
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So he knew the age of the person and that the gun was a toy. You are right, Kreskin aint got nothing on him.
 
Cephus said:
If you want to see these things stop, you need to stop those kids from being stupid and their parents from allowing them to do stupid things. Funny how that's never something you acknowledge.
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There will always be stupid kids. There will always be otherwise smart kids who once in a while do stupid things. There will always be parents who don't do a proper job of raising their kids. That will never change.

What bothers me is the perception on the part of law enforcement that we, the citizenry, are enemy combatants. I don't believe this happened because of a stupid kid - I believe it happened because of the extreme us-vs-them that has developed in this country. I could well be wrong but I don't believe this encounter would have ended this way 50 or 60 years ago. I don't believe the police would have assumed that the kid had a real gun.
 
CRUE CAB said:
So he knew the age of the person and that the gun was a toy. You are right, Kreskin aint got nothing on him.
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No he probably knew neither. But most 12 year old look, well like 12 year olds.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Agreed...

what I don't understand is why some defend these brutal police tactics and why the cops themselves don't change them. Why not have one cop with a gun out, perhaps, while a couple of others go to the kid attempting to talk to him. There is no gun visible until they confront him with deadly intent. He probably was just lifting his shirt to show them it was a toy gun. Why are the guys sucking these cops dicks so afraid to admit anything negative?
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That has been my thought on what may have happened and would be a child's logic, that if they show it to him they would know.

I've made the point here several times I was pulled over with an airsoft rifle and had guns pointed at me and my family while the officer called for backup. My then five year old daughter was in the backseat with the toy gun and was terrified. Had she maybe been a little older I could see her grabbing the box to show the cop and say hey it's just a toy. It's not about kids being stupid, it's that they are just not versed in adult behavior that you can't just show them a fake gun like that.

And I've also said how the cop said if he would have seen us on the street with it he would have straight up shot us with no questions asked. So it seems maybe we needs to re-evaluate how these realistic looking fake guns are manufactured. If it's that easy to confuse a trained officer, I would think that should tell us it's not a very smart idea to have them on the streets.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Probably. Most. Look like. All vague terms.
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I don't know what the kid looked like so I can't say definitively. But if you want me to put a number to it I'd say that 99 out of 100 12 year olds I see look like 12 year olds. Is your experience different?
 
lifeisshort said:
IMO Ferguson was a good shooting but I am not so sure about this one. It will be interesting to see what facts come out here.



"officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

“That’s when the officer fired,” he said.

Read more at Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police - Toledo Blade
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If what the article said about the incident is accurate, that the kid went for the gun after being told to put his hands in the air by police, this looks like another justified shooting and the blame here isn't just that 12 year old boy, but also his parents for not teaching him to respect the police and always obey their instructions.
 
Gaius46 said:
There will always be stupid kids. There will always be otherwise smart kids who once in a while do stupid things. There will always be parents who don't do a proper job of raising their kids. That will never change.

What bothers me is the perception on the part of law enforcement that we, the citizenry, are enemy combatants. I don't believe this happened because of a stupid kid - I believe it happened because of the extreme us-vs-them that has developed in this country. I could well be wrong but I don't believe this encounter would have ended this way 50 or 60 years ago. I don't believe the police would have assumed that the kid had a real gun.
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This is exactly right. The police have become in recent years just a militarized arm of the government used against its People. Them against us. Rather us then them. So they teach this "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of threat assessment and this is where it gets us. it's absurd. The police are for the People. They must be for the People. We need better protocols. I don't want police to needlessly be at risk, though some amount of risk is inherent to the job. But we can't employ these lethal methods so haphazardly. We must find a solution.
 
Gaius46 said:
I don't know what the kid looked like so I can't say definitively. But if you want me to put a number to it I'd say that 99 out of 100 12 year olds I see look like 12 year olds. Is your experience different?
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You'd say? Out of what experience do you speak?
 
Grim17 said:
If what the article said about the incident is accurate, that the kid went for the gun after being told to put his hands in the air by police, this looks like another justified shooting and the blame here isn't just that 12 year old boy, but also his parents for not teaching him to respect the police and always obey their instructions.
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It's not just respecting cops either though. My mother always taught me you shouldn't point any guns (except squirt guns, which for us could not be mistaken for a real gun) at anyone. This was especially true of any gun that either fired projectiles or could be mistaken for a real gun. I teach my children the same thing. My husband doesn't want the boys to have toy guns really at all because then they learn to treat guns as toys, especially if they look real. They will learn to safely handle and soot a real gun when they are older, but it will not be treated as a toy. And this is one good reason to teach children this early on.
 
Ikari said:
The police have become in recent years just a militarized arm of the government used against its People.
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They didn't roll up on Tamir with an MRAP.

This incident has nothing to do with militarization. These types of incidents have happened for decades.


Them against us. Rather us then them.
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Or: Cops saw an adolescent reaching for something that looks exactly like a gun. They don't know Tamir, the parents didn't get to him before the police did, and for whatever reason Tamir allegedly reached for the gun rather than follow orders.

"Us instead of them" is not workable. We can't have police painting a big fat bullseye on their uniforms, and hesitating because the person with a gun is a citizen.


So they teach this "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of threat assessment and this is where it gets us. it's absurd.
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mmmm

So with your vast expertise in international policing tactics, can you provide us with policy guidelines that won't result in police getting shot up by 14 year olds?

Or perhaps you think the police have a freeze ray, and haven't bothered to tell us about it...?

freeze-ray.jpg
 
CRUE CAB said:
You'd say? Out of what experience do you speak?
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Within the last decade I had two kids who were 12 years old and and I saw enough similarly aged kids at their schools and in playgrounds to know that most kids look like kids. So again I ask is your experience different? Do you run into a lot of pre teens who look like
adults?
 
Also, something people are not looking at either is that had the gun been real, and the boy fired it, what's to say the only people in danger of being shot were the cops? Weren't there other people on the playground? Pretty sure the likelihood that a teenager firing a real gun on a playground will miss and hit someone else is higher than police officers firing their guns twice would miss and hit someone else.
 
Gaius46 said:
Within the last decade I had two kids who were 12 years old and and I saw enough similarly aged kids at their schools and in playgrounds to know that most kids look like kids. So again I ask is your experience different? Do you run into a lot of pre teens who look like
adults?
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I have, and if any of them pulled a gun on me. They would not make it to 13.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Not the same case...but this guy speaks truth to all the fauxrage and bluster that accompanies a police involved shooting.

 
americanwoman said:
That has been my thought on what may have happened and would be a child's logic, that if they show it to him they would know.

I've made the point here several times I was pulled over with an airsoft rifle and had guns pointed at me and my family while the officer called for backup. My then five year old daughter was in the backseat with the toy gun and was terrified. Had she maybe been a little older I could see her grabbing the box to show the cop and say hey it's just a toy. It's not about kids being stupid, it's that they are just not versed in adult behavior that you can't just show them a fake gun like that.

And I've also said how the cop said if he would have seen us on the street with it he would have straight up shot us with no questions asked. So it seems maybe we needs to re-evaluate how these realistic looking fake guns are manufactured. If it's that easy to confuse a trained officer, I would think that should tell us it's not a very smart idea to have them on the streets.
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I never thought about this until your story here... my buddy and I were pulled over and the cop and his partner are using their lights to look in my back seat and he says "why do you have machete in your car?" I had forgotten about it and said that we were going to use it to free my car from the snow (blizzard conditions near Yosemite) and he thought that sounded reasonable for some reason and said OK. No guns drawn or anything but I got a warning for drifting on the snow/ice.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Bodhisattva said:
No, it isn't his fault. The gun was a toy. The fault is 100% the cops.
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You probably wouldn't be blaming the cops if the kid was White.

You don't grabbing for something when the cops have their guns unholstered and tell you to put your hands up. Especially if that something is a gun, real or toy.
 
Grim17 said:
If what the article said about the incident is accurate, that the kid went for the gun after being told to put his hands in the air by police, this looks like another justified shooting and the blame here isn't just that 12 year old boy, but also his parents for not teaching him to respect the police and always obey their instructions.
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If is the operative word here. It seems to take days for us to get all the facts,weeks even
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Roadvirus said:
You probably wouldn't be blaming the cops if the kid was White.

You don't grabbing for something when the cops have their guns unholstered and tell you to put your hands up. Especially if that something is a gun, real or toy.
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American cops have almost free reign to murder whomever they want, and Americans tolerate it because they accept BS talking points about "legitimate" use of force. Meanwhile police in other Western nations murder far, far less of the country's citizens and are held accountable when they do. It isn't just a white/black deal.
 
Gaius46 said:
Doesn't answer the question as to why on earth would the cop assume a 12 year old kid has a real gun?
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These days, i'm sure there are kids younger then 12 who've committed murder. Age makes almost zero difference in terms of criminality these days.
 
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