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Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

Not a strawman, you claimed the Senator doesn't value marriage because he is for SSM.

Not at all. There are plenty of people who value marriage and are for SSM because of that. I said the specifics surrounding his change of heart suggest that he doesn't value it much as a "right".
 
Yup. He thought of it from a new perspective. And what was that perspective?



That of a dad who loves his son a lot. :shrug:



Sure. But if you change your position on something like this not because of your principles but because it was something you wanted to do in order to validate and enable your son (which is a natural desire for a parent), then that means that it is likely that either A) your original position wasn't built on principles or B) your principles are weaker than your emotions.

And once again you are adding things he never said. He did not say, nor is there evidence I can find, that his reason was to "validate and enable his son". What he said was that he had a new perspective on the issue.
 
I would have a very hard time really calling either McCain or Romney anything but socially conservative, and the reason they lost had exactly jack and **** to do with social issues.

As a social conservative I have no problem identifying that neither of them ran on anything except the "moderate GOP" brand. George W ran on Social Conservatism/Fiscal Moderation, and he won two elections. McCain and Romney flipped that, and lost two elections.

And the reason McCain lost was because of the meltdown and the relative outturn in base. The reason Romney lost was straight up the relative outturn in base.
 
And once again you are adding things he never said. He did not say, nor is there evidence I can find, that his reason was to "validate and enable his son". What he said was that he had a new perspective on the issue.

Yes, and that his new perspective was that his son who he loves is now gay and he wants things for him. That's pretty much it right there.

I think you are doing the fip-side of what you warned me of - seeking to find positive reasons for him to take a position you view positively.
 
As a social conservative I have no problem identifying that neither of them ran on anything except the "moderate GOP" brand. George W ran on Social Conservatism/Fiscal Moderation, and he won two elections. McCain and Romney flipped that, and lost two elections.

I would have a hard time calling Bush the younger anything but fiscally conservative as he ran(how he governed was another issue), and this may point to an issue with both of us, looking from outlier positions and have less to do with Bush, McCain and Romney's actual positions.

And the reason McCain lost was because of the meltdown and the relative outturn in base. The reason Romney lost was straight up the relative outturn in base.

So you agree that their stance on social issues was not why they lost?
 
Yes, and that his new perspective was that his son who he loves is now gay and he wants things for him. That's pretty much it right there.

I think you are doing the fip-side of what you warned me of - seeking to find positive reasons for him to take a position you view positively.

I repeat, seeing issues from different perspectives and rethinking your stance on those issues is not a sign of any lack of principles. You want to read into what he said and demonize him, but it really is not working. Can you point to any single person who has not rethought their stance on issues over time and because of events?
 
I would have a hard time calling Bush the younger anything but fiscally conservative as he ran(how he governed was another issue)

:raises eyebrow: do you remember the same "Compassionate Conservatism" that I do?

and this may point to an issue with both of us, looking from outlier positions and have less to do with Bush, McCain and Romney's actual positions.

Well I am looking here at their engagement as well as platform.

So you agree that their stance on social issues was not why they lost?

I am saying that social conservatives are Republicans base. Failing to turn them out is the equivalent of Democrats deciding not to support Unions, Women, or Minorities.
 
I repeat, seeing issues from different perspectives and rethinking your stance on those issues is not a sign of any lack of principles.

I'm not saying it is. I am saying it indicates that his principles are not that powerful here, but rather are trumped by his emotions.

You want to read into what he said and demonize him

:shrug: who's demonizing? I'm saying that he said that he changed his position not out of principle but rather because he loved his son and wanted to validate and enable him. Which is what you then quoted him as saying.

Can you point to any single person who has not rethought their stance on issues over time and because of events?

Sure - most folks change a stance. But that is not the same as changing or adopting a principle. For example, Barack Obama promised to take public funding in 2008, and then discovered he could get a bunch more money if he didn't, at which point he declared he wouldn't take public funding. Do you think that he made that change on principle? Or because it was convenient?
 
He's pro gay marriage because his son came out and he wanted to validate him - prior to that, he was against it.

Meaning that he chooses his stance not on principle, but rather on what is most convenient to him. If you honestly think that access to SSM is a "right", you may want to consider how lightly he values it.

This is like being angry that a person changes their mind about cigarette regulations after a relative develops lung cancer. Or being angry that a person changes their mind on modern medicine after it is used to save the life of a relative. Not everyone sees all of their beliefs as unshakable pillars that are above change.
 
TD claims to be a buddy of his (and may very well be), who thinks that he does, and was pushing for him last time around as Romney's VP pick.



Yeah. We tried the "let's pick a moderate Republican candidate who isn't strong on social conservatism but who is good on fiscal issues" in 2008 and 2012. It turns out, when you don't do a good job of turning out your base, you loose elections.

VP is more like it with Portman. In 2008 no Republican was going to win even if they ran Lincoln. Bush fatigue had set in and people were just tired of Republican rule. In November of 2004 Party Identification was 38-35 advantage Republican when Bush won re-election. In November of 2006 when the Republicans lost the congress, lost 6 senate and 33 house seats it was 24-35 advantage Democrats. In 2008 party affiliation was 28-37 in favor of the Democrats. No Republican was going to overcome those odds even if they won the independent vote, McCain lost by 7 points.

In 2012, the advantage was less, but still to the Democrats 28-33. 5 points, Romney lost the popular by 5 points as independents split down the middle. Now to October of 2014 which is the last numbers I have, this time the Republicans had the advantage in party affiliation 33-29 as Obama fatigue had begun to set in. You know what happened.

It remains to be seen if Obama fatigue, like Bush fatigue lasts until the end of his presidency. If it does, the Republicans may find themselves in the position the Democrats were in in 2008. Where the name of the nominees mean little.
 
This is like being angry that a person changes their mind about cigarette regulations after a relative develops lung cancer. Or being angry that a person changes their mind on modern medicine after it is used to save the life of a relative. Not everyone sees all of their beliefs as unshakable pillars that are above change.

:roll: who's angry? I'm only pointing out that before you laud a person for holding a position, that you should consider the fact that he holds it not out of principle, but rather out of personal emotional convenience, indicating how importantly he holds the principle you are trying to argue in favor of.

It's like me arguing that we should lower taxes, and as a point of evidence, I bring up a rich person who is in favor of him personally paying less in taxes. How much credibility are you going to give that as an argument on the principle that lower taxes enable economic growth?
 
:roll: who's angry? I'm only pointing out that before you laud a person for holding a position, that you should consider the fact that he holds it not out of principle, but rather out of personal emotional convenience, indicating how importantly he holds the principle you are trying to argue in favor of.

It's like me arguing that we should lower taxes, and as a point of evidence, I bring up a rich person who is in favor of him personally paying less in taxes. How much credibility are you going to give that as an argument on the principle that lower taxes enable economic growth?

I support people based on the way they've developed their principles. For example, I was pretty supportive of Romney as a person, until he decided to go against his positions in Massachusetts and attack those who didn't pay taxes, healthcare and immigration. Once he did that, I realized he'd changed his views to please the social conservative base. In turn, this senator has nothing to gain from Republicans by supporting gay marriage this early and this publicly. His positions on other issues make him a pariah to the left. That makes me like him. He may not support abortion, however, he doesn't have to. There's no chance of it being overturned. Changing your opinion on an subject that affects you personaly is not something which should be looked down upon.
 
Being pro gay marriage I would think would hurt Portman in the primaries if he decided to run. I do not think he could ever be nominated by the GOP. Now I have never heard of Portman having presidential ambitions before either. That is new to me.

There are a lot of fiscal conservatives out there unaligned with the Republicans because of their stances on social issues. I think one day the GOP will have to decide between the religious right and those unaligned fiscal conservatives.

Like you this is the first I have heard of Portman's presidential aspirations. I know Romney was eyeing him for his administration if he were elected. Up until a year or so ago, Portman was not pro-gay at least in his political life. I think you can check and see he supported DOMA but about 18 months ago he had a son that came out gay and had a partner and wanted to get married. Then he came out in support of gay marriage. Portman is far from a Conservative and never would be considered as a serious candidate. Not just over gay marriage but because he has voted 60 percent of the time against the Republican platform. Some have described him if you want to use colors, he isn't blue, he isn't red, he's a light shade of lavender. But Portman when he did come out for gay marriage knew he would lose support so he immediately became a pro-life advocate overnight to offset the damage.

I don't agree with you on the Republican party needing to distance itself from the social conservative wing of their party. First off a good number of those social conservatives use to be Democrats till their party no longer supported the same values. Also, a percentage of those who identify themselves as Independents are also those who have left the Democratic party for the same reasons. They make up a good number of voters in this country. And as far as a platform goes, hardly support for gay marriage is in the top ten issues voters see paramount at this time. Though support for gay marriage has increased with the college students to early 30's voters, not so much with others. Last time I checked even between the young the support has leveled off. Even with a consorted effort through Hollywood to make it appear a very common lifestyle.
 
Like you this is the first I have heard of Portman's presidential aspirations. I know Romney was eyeing him for his administration if he were elected. Up until a year or so ago, Portman was not pro-gay at least in his political life. I think you can check and see he supported DOMA but about 18 months ago he had a son that came out gay and had a partner and wanted to get married. Then he came out in support of gay marriage. Portman is far from a Conservative and never would be considered as a serious candidate. Not just over gay marriage but because he has voted 60 percent of the time against the Republican platform. Some have described him if you want to use colors, he isn't blue, he isn't red, he's a light shade of lavender. But Portman when he did come out for gay marriage knew he would lose support so he immediately became a pro-life advocate overnight to offset the damage.

I don't agree with you on the Republican party needing to distance itself from the social conservative wing of their party. First off a good number of those social conservatives use to be Democrats till their party no longer supported the same values. Also, a percentage of those who identify themselves as Independents are also those who have left the Democratic party for the same reasons. They make up a good number of voters in this country. And as far as a platform goes, hardly support for gay marriage is in the top ten issues voters see paramount at this time. Though support for gay marriage has increased with the college students to early 30's voters, not so much with others. Last time I checked even between the young the support has leveled off. Even with a consorted effort through Hollywood to make it appear a very common lifestyle.

True. It wasn't until the SCOTUS ruling on abortion that the religious right became a political power. Then a lot of religious Democrats switched parties. But I think the religious right hit its peak during Reagan and that power has been ebbing very slowly ever since. Yes gay marriage is more of a peripheral issue to other issues that really count more. It is way down on the totem pole so to speak. Abortion is higher on the totem, but that has been decided. It is just some won't let go of it. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned.

The thing here is a lot of fiscal conservatives believe in small government or what is known as the third tenet of traditional conservatism. Keeping government out of a citizens private business and lives. Letting a woman decide on her own whether or not to have an abortion is more of an individual choice, freedom if you will. Having government dictate to a woman that she can't have an abortion is more of a statist view or action. Gay marriage, once again it is keeping government out of deciding who can or who can't be married. I would personally take it even further and do away with the polygamy laws. Let those involved or individuals decide on their own whom to marry, not government.

But each of us view things differently, to me this is keeping government out of the bedroom, you might view it entirely different. But I do think at sometime in the future, whenever that is. That the Republicans will have to decide whether to keep the religious right under their umbrella or reach out to those fiscal conservatives who are fairly liberal socially to bring them back into the flock.
 
Considering Libertarians espouse the nonsense that government should get out of marriage, as where liberals argue for legal recognition of it, I'd say he's a liberal Republican.

There's no such thing as a Liberal Republican.
 
So anyone that isn't for gay marriage is a bigot? Is that your contention?

Some people hate the institution of marriage. Most people that hate marriage don't hate marriage because men or women are marrying.

Why do you hate gay marriage? Is it that you hate marriage?
 
True. It wasn't until the SCOTUS ruling on abortion that the religious right became a political power. Then a lot of religious Democrats switched parties. But I think the religious right hit its peak during Reagan and that power has been ebbing very slowly ever since. Yes gay marriage is more of a peripheral issue to other issues that really count more. It is way down on the totem pole so to speak. Abortion is higher on the totem, but that has been decided. It is just some won't let go of it. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned.

The Pro-Life are growing to outweigh the Pro-Choice in this country, and are capturing more and more of the young (who are otherwise generally more socially liberal). Plessy v Ferguson was on the books for decades, too, until we recognized it as the injustice that it was.

The thing here is a lot of fiscal conservatives believe in small government or what is known as the third tenet of traditional conservatism. Keeping government out of a citizens private business and lives.

The problem being that they all too often fail to realize that social conservatism is a necessary precondition to fiscal conservatism. Women and children require a support model. That model will either be "husbands" or it will be "big government". Those who cannot work for themselves require a support model as well. That model will either be "family, savings, and society" or it will be "big government". So long as we live in a world in which non-optimal family structure are encouraged or enabled, you will have demand for big, expensive government to make up the gaps.

Letting a woman decide on her own whether or not to have an abortion is more of an individual choice, freedom if you will. Having government dictate to a woman that she can't have an abortion is more of a statist view or action.

This is a claim that begs the assumption. If an unborn child is indeed a human child (as the pro-life hold), then it is no more "statist" for a government to restrict abortion than it is Statist for that government to restrict any other killing of one person by another.

Gay marriage, once again it is keeping government out of deciding who can or who can't be married.

If that were honestly the policy alternative. Instead it is is libertarians (generally) supporting positions to change what government decides about to whom it shall issue a marriage license rather than deciding not to do so. I still think that the first is a deeply problematic position (society has a host of reasons why it is good policy to encourage successful marriages), but it isn't what is actually being de facto supported.

I would personally take it even further and do away with the polygamy laws. Let those involved or individuals decide on their own whom to marry, not government.

So you would indeed maintain a role for government in marriage, meaning that you are not "libertarian" on the issue, but merely socially liberal. Polygamy comes additionally with a host of issues - polygamous societies are less stable, for example.

But each of us view things differently, to me this is keeping government out of the bedroom, you might view it entirely different

I don't recall the government aggressively pursuing a law that states "If you are married to one woman, you cannot live with and sleep with a second as well". The government isn't in the bedroom relegating action, it is simply having limits placed on it by the populace (namely, the limits defining when it will or will not issue a marriage license) - and that is a function that you would keep, only adjusting the particulars a bit.

But I do think at sometime in the future, whenever that is. That the Republicans will have to decide whether to keep the religious right under their umbrella or reach out to those fiscal conservatives who are fairly liberal socially to bring them back into the flock.

Well, given the past few elections, the answer to that is plain - Social Conservatives are the base, if you don't bring them out, you lose. Those who are A) socially liberal B) fiscally conservative and C) likely to either sit out a vote or vote Democrat aren't a big enough proportion of the populace to justify losing the base to.

Generally speaking, it's also a shrinking portion of the populace - the American people are becoming more ideologically uniform within the camps - we are more likely to be both socially and fiscally liberal or both socially and fiscally conservative than in the past.
 
So anyone that isn't for gay marriage is a bigot? Is that your contention?

Anyone who isn't for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage is, yes.

One does not personally have to approve of it to believe it should be legal. I don't approve of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to eat them.


And so began the Sandwich Wars of 2014.
 
Anyone who isn't for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage is, yes.

One does not personally have to approve of it to believe it should be legal. I don't approve of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to eat them.


And so began the Sandwich Wars of 2014.

this is a position that rapidly becomes indefensible, and its proponents are forced to depend upon strawmen slippery slope decryal in order to avoid that fact.
 
Anyone who isn't for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage is, yes.

One does not personally have to approve of it to believe it should be legal. I don't approve of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to eat them.


And so began the Sandwich Wars of 2014.

Peanut butter sandwiches kill a great many people.
 
this is a position that rapidly becomes indefensible, and its proponents are forced to depend upon strawmen slippery slope decryal in order to avoid that fact.

"Individual liberty is an indefensible position" - a conservative.
 
True. It wasn't until the SCOTUS ruling on abortion that the religious right became a political power. Then a lot of religious Democrats switched parties. But I think the religious right hit its peak during Reagan and that power has been ebbing very slowly ever since. Yes gay marriage is more of a peripheral issue to other issues that really count more. It is way down on the totem pole so to speak. Abortion is higher on the totem, but that has been decided. It is just some won't let go of it. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned.

The thing here is a lot of fiscal conservatives believe in small government or what is known as the third tenet of traditional conservatism. Keeping government out of a citizens private business and lives. Letting a woman decide on her own whether or not to have an abortion is more of an individual choice, freedom if you will. Having government dictate to a woman that she can't have an abortion is more of a statist view or action. Gay marriage, once again it is keeping government out of deciding who can or who can't be married. I would personally take it even further and do away with the polygamy laws. Let those involved or individuals decide on their own whom to marry, not government.

But each of us view things differently, to me this is keeping government out of the bedroom, you might view it entirely different. But I do think at sometime in the future, whenever that is. That the Republicans will have to decide whether to keep the religious right under their umbrella or reach out to those fiscal conservatives who are fairly liberal socially to bring them back into the flock.

I guess where we differ Perotista is I don't see it so cut and dried as you do. Just because someone is socially conservative doesn't mean they are not fiscally conservative too. Many are. In fact for the socially conservative they see personal responsibility paramount to what their religions teach them. They have become big advocates for constitutional civil liberties since they have seen their own violated in current days. They don't much like having government define marriage for them. They now see it as a state issue. Same with guns. Most social and fiscal conservatives believe in a strong defense. More and more social conservatives are beginning to see the need to the return to federalism because of failed policies they once supported. Many have changed abortion rules in their own states significantly. Don't paint them with such a broad brush Pero.
 
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And they're delicious too!

Depends. Grilling them will reduce your chances of choking to death on one. Some brands do not grill as well as others IMHO.
 
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