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Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

This is one of those "not all mammals are monkeys, but all monkeys are mammals" kind of statements. In this case it would be, "Not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage."

I just googled "remove government from marriage site:debatepolitics.com" (without quotation marks) because DP's own search engine sucks, and found this thread right away. It's highly representative of my experiences with libertarians and discussions on removing government from marriage, especially as it pertains to ssm.

Feel free to use that search term up there and hop from thread to thread. It's very consistent.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/93008-why-marriage-recognized-government-anyway-2.html



If you would like to cherrypick random threads from a political debate website to back your claim that Libertarians are antipathic towards gay marriage, fine.

Here's a thread started by a conservative that shows three Libertarians and myself, another Libertarian, through "likes" (Clax, brothern, criticalthought) defending the institution of marriage against only one libertarian (gaius, who actually is a known supporter of gay marriage) and an anarchist/voluntaryist/ancap/whatever the hell he is today (Henrin).

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/203892-get-government-out-marriage.html

Consistent?
 
If you would like to cherrypick random threads from a political debate website to back your claim that Libertarians are antipathic towards gay marriage, fine.

Here's a thread started by a conservative that shows three Libertarians and myself, another Libertarian, through "likes" (Clax, brothern, criticalthought) defending the institution of marriage against only one libertarian (gaius, who actually is a known supporter of gay marriage) and an anarchist/voluntaryist/ancap/whatever the hell he is today (Henrin).

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/203892-get-government-out-marriage.html

Consistent?

As I said, not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage. Next time someone suggests the removal of government from marriage, look to the left and tell me what you see, and it'll be "undisclosed" or "libertarian."

And Gaius specifically called for the removal of government from marriage.
 
As I said, not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage. Next time someone suggests the removal of government from marriage, look to the left and tell me what you see, and it'll be "undisclosed" or "libertarian."

And Gaius specifically called for the removal of government from marriage.

I have yet to see the antipathy....
 
I've explained this to Tres already.

You explained it, I asked for you to back it, you never did. You just made a bunch of posts telling me to look to the left when someone says to get government out of marriage. Even if I were to concede that Libertarians are "consistently" for removing government from all marriages and civil unions entirely, that still would not address said "antipathy towards SSM." As dumb as it is IMO, wanting to get government out of marriage is not indicative of antipathy towards anything other than government.

Show me the antipathy. DocileLion gave you stellar examples of the Libertarian Party openly and proudly supporting SSM dating all the way back to 1972. Can you provide examples in the same way?
 
You explained it, I asked for you to back it, you never did. You just made a bunch of posts telling me to look to the left when someone says to get government out of marriage. Even if I were to concede that Libertarians are "consistently" for removing government from all marriages and civil unions entirely, that still would not address said "antipathy." As dumb as it is IMO, wanting to get government out of marriage is not indicative of antipathy towards anything other than government.

Show me the antipathy. DocileLion gave you stellar examples of the Libertarian Party openly and proudly supporting SSM dating all the way back to 1972. Can you provide examples in the same way?

Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.

You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?
 
Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.

That's not antipathy.

an·tip·a·thy
anˈtēpəTHē/
noun
a deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.
"his fundamental antipathy to capitalism"


You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?

No, because that's not really true either.
 
Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.

You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?

Didn't we go over this belief of yours a year of so ago? Your reason for being against it starts with the idea that states would not enforce private gay marriage contracts, and while it is true many would not, it is not true that legally they have any feet to stand on for doing it. As I made clear in that thread when you brought it up, there are two elements that gay marriage needs and both of which has been declared a right in this country; being the right to contract and the right to marriage. Basically, your argument is that because the government can ignore your rights that we need to have more government to make sure they don't ignore rights that have already been declared. It's idiotic. All you have to do is sue the state on the grounds that gays do in fact have a right to marriage and get them to enforce the contract. The only difference between that and what is happening now is that gays are trying to become party to a government license, while my argument would deal with private contract recognition.

As for your argument that opposition is rooted in antipathy, again that belief of yours has already been dealt with in past threads. The opposition to a marriage license has to deal with government involvement in the private relationships of people and the amount of control the government has over the contract. It has nothing to do with some sort of dislike of gays or whatever.
 
That's not antipathy.

an·tip·a·thy
anˈtēpəTHē/
noun
a deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.
"his fundamental antipathy to capitalism"




No, because that's not really true either.

Oh ffs, I feel like I'm arguing with X-Factor. I know what antipathy means (but thanks for copying and pasting the definition with the proper break in syllables and dipthongs or whatever), and the antipathy is expressed through the notion that legalization of ssm is a bad thing.

Are you just mad at me because I forgot your birthday? If so, happy birthday. I hope there was cake n' ****.
 
Oh ffs, I feel like I'm arguing with X-Factor. I know what antipathy means (but thanks for copying and pasting the definition with the proper break in syllables and dipthongs or whatever), and the antipathy is expressed through the notion that legalization of ssm is a bad thing.

None of the examples you provided expressed that at all. Only that government has no place in marriage. Disagreeable, sure, but forgive me if I don't take that as antipathic and bigoted.

Are you just mad at me because I forgot your birthday? If so, happy birthday. I hope there was cake n' ****.

No. I just don't appreciate you making claims you can't properly back.
 
None of the examples you provided expressed that at all. Only that government has no place in marriage. Disagreeable, sure, but forgive me if I don't take that as antipathic and bigoted.

Which I could buy if the argument for the removal of government came up during any other discussion than ssm. But since they're inexorably connected I would have to be pants-crappingly retarded to think it didn't stem from an antipathy for ssm. When it comes up, it's often packaged as support for gays, under the pretext that without government "intrusion" they could marry any time they wanted. So I thank them for their support, and say that as ssm legalization is spreading that kind of support won't be necessary any longer. At that point they typically explode with some fantastic hyperbole, like, "You'll be sorry when the government comes to every door and throws you all into gas chambers!!!!" Lulz ensue.

No. I just don't appreciate you making claims you can't properly back.

Actually I did, but you think this is about you so you're not understanding what I'm saying.
 
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Which I could buy if the argument for the removal of government came up during any other discussion than ssm. But since they're inexorably connected I would have to be pants-crappingly retarded to think it didn't stem from an antipathy for ssm. When it comes up, it's often packaged as support for gays, under the pretext that without government "intrusion" they could marry any time they wanted. So I thank them for their support, and say that as ssm legalization is spreading that kind of support won't be necessary any longer. At that point they typically explode with some fantastic hyperbole, like, "You'll be sorry when the government comes to every door and throws you all into gas chambers!!!!" Lulz ensue.

1). That discussion doesn't just happen when the topic of SSM comes up.

2). You're talking about two or three people on an internet forum. Not exactly representative of the whole movement.



Actually I did, but you think this is about you so you're not understanding what I'm saying.

I don't think it's about me. I made it clear that I don't think ending government involvement in marriage is viable or even desirable. So obviously you aren't talking about me. That doesn't change the fact that you claimed "Libertarians consistently show antipathy towards SSM" but cannot come up with any sort of legitimate backing.
 
1). That discussion doesn't just happen when the topic of SSM comes up.

Yes it does.

2). You're talking about two or three people on an internet forum. Not exactly representative of the whole movement.

I don't think it's about me. I made it clear that I don't think ending government involvement in marriage is viable or even desirable. So obviously you aren't talking about me. That doesn't change the fact that you claimed "Libertarians consistently show antipathy towards SSM" but cannot come up with any sort of legitimate backing.

Correction: I said that every time someone does suggest that government be removed from marriage, it's a libertarian doing it. If you're asking me to cite specific posters I can be gigged for that because it's considered to be a call-out post. I've experienced this already.
 
Yes it does.

Actually, no. But I'm going to stop arguing this point because it's nothing but a red herring and you know it.

Correction: I said that every time someone does suggest that government be removed from marriage, it's a libertarian doing it.

Correction of your correction: You did, in fact, say that Libertarians show consistent antipathy towards SSM. Need a reminder?

So the sentiment I see coming from Libertarians is consistently one of antipathy toward ssm rather than the support you assign to them.

You still have yet to back that claim up. You have provided nothing but red herrings and deflection. Frankly I'm growing tired of it. Show me where Libertarians are consistently antipathic towards SSM. No BS, no grasping at straws, no deflection, no red herrings. Solid backing for your claim. I'll wait.
 
Actually, no. But I'm going to stop arguing this point because it's nothing but a red herring and you know it.



Correction of your correction: You did, in fact, say that Libertarians show consistent antipathy towards SSM. Need a reminder?



You still have yet to back that claim up. You have provided nothing but red herrings and deflection. Frankly I'm growing tired of it. Show me where Libertarians are consistently antipathic towards SSM. No BS, no grasping at straws, no deflection, no red herrings. Solid backing for your claim. I'll wait.

You've got tunnel vision. I clarified my statement eons ago. And I did back up my claim, and funny enough everything you said in response to the thread I linked to and the one you linked to both supported my position, which is that when somebody suggests that government be removed from marriage, it's a libertarian making the statement.
 
You've got tunnel vision. I clarified my statement eons ago. And I did back up my claim, and funny enough everything you said in response to the thread I linked to and the one you linked to both supported my position, which is that when somebody suggests that government be removed from marriage, it's a libertarian making the statement.

Oh good lord. :2brickwal

Showing me a couple of Libertarians on an internet forum that want to get government out of marriage does not, in any way, prove that Libertarians are consistently antipathic towards SSM.
 
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Oh good lord. :2brickwal

Showing me a couple of Libertarians on an internet forum that want to get government out of marriage does not, in any way, prove that Libertarians are consistently antipathic towards SSM.

Never mind, we're just talking past each other.
 
Never mind, we're just talking past each other.

Apparently so. I respect you as a poster for sure, I just don't understand why you're so intent on making this ridiculous point despite the fact that all evidence outweighs you. Libertarians have been a key ally of the LGBT movement for decades so I don't understand how anyone could mistake us for being antipathic towards it simply because a few of us would like to see all government involvement eliminated.
 
Apparently so. I respect you as a poster for sure, I just don't understand why you're so intent on making this ridiculous point despite the fact that all evidence outweighs you. Libertarians have been a key ally of the LGBT movement for decades so I don't understand how anyone could mistake us for being antipathic towards it simply because a few of us would like to see all government involvement eliminated.

Thank you, Telekat, I respect you too. Unfortunately I'm not communicating my point successfully, since when you repeat my argument back to me it's consistently not the one I've stated. If I recall, the only thing you've gotten right thus far is that I did not accuse you personally of siding against gays in the ssm debate. After that, though, it's pretty much been like shooting at each other in the dark.
 
Thank you, Telekat, I respect you too. Unfortunately I'm not communicating my point successfully, since when you repeat my argument back to me it's consistently not the one I've stated. If I recall, the only thing you've gotten right thus far is that I did not accuse you personally of siding against gays in the ssm debate. After that, though, it's pretty much been like shooting at each other in the dark.

Well, lets back-track then. I will try to do a better job of understand where you are coming from. Are you of the opinion that Libertarians are generally (or consistently) antipathic towards SSM?
 
Opposition to abortion goes up and down like a wave and there is no indication that this is likely to change anytime soon. There is not a huge difference in support/opposition to abortion in younger generations, unlike with same sex marriage.

That is incorrect, especially when you compare younger generations to their parents generations.

Ironically (given the political divide) the driving force is the same behind the increase in those who are pro-life and the increase in those who are pro-SSM: raw broadening of empathy.
 
That is incorrect, especially when you compare younger generations to their parents generations.

Ironically (given the political divide) the driving force is the same behind the increase in those who are pro-life and the increase in those who are pro-SSM: raw broadening of empathy.

I have evidence from polls that show otherwise. It has gone up and down only a little bit. Overall, it has remained pretty steady since at least the Roe decision.

Abortion | Gallup Historical Trends

This graph looks a lot different than those in connection with same sex marriage.

There hasn't been a huge amount of change with time when it comes to abortion. Most of the opposition/support on the abortion issue comes with specifically where the limitations should or should not be. The majority feels it should be legal under limited circumstances, while the other two options had low numbers for both, all abortion illegal or all abortion legal.

And there is very little generational difference. The biggest difference being in whether all abortions should be illegal, which still does not have a majority in that younger age group. What has the majority is abortion legal under certain circumstances.

Generational Differences on Abortion Narrow

Otherwise all groups have been changing with time, trending up and down between decades. We may (and likely will) see another change in the future where support with all age groups for abortions (at least limited) grows.

The graph for same sex marriage looks a whole lot like the graph for interracial marriage, only over a lot fewer years.
 
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