US Sailors Victims of Videotaped Attack in Istanbul

Wiggen said:

And you are convinced that the government of Turkey will arrest these people and prosecute them? If you are, I have a nice bridge for sale.

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This particular group are Erdogans political enemies and there is zero chance he would give them political cover.

rathi said:

The Zeta's kidnapped and murdered an entire bus of innocent passengers. You can slap whatever label like on it, but its worse than most attacks arbitrarily labeled as terrorism. Its also not an isolated incident, its systemic. The latest episode about 43 students being murdered is still in the news.

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Alright I'll give you the full answer since you insist on being wrong here:

If an American citizen commits crimes of violence on Mexican soil and then resorts to American soil, the Mexicans wouldn't have legitimacy in bombing American soil and targeting the criminal.
If an Afghan citizen commits crimes of terrorism on another state's soil and then resorts to Afghan soil, the attacked state has every legitimacy to bomb Afghan soil and target the terrorist.

Differences between two scenarios:

1) America is able to capture its citizens that committed crimes of violence on Mexican soil and bring them to justice, hence Mexico has no right to violate its sovereignty.
2) Afghanistan has proven it is simply incapable of capturing and bringing to justice its citizens that are committing acts of terrorism on foreign soil, hence the state that they target has every right to violate their sovereignty and pursue the attackers. That's recognized by international law and really should be obvious.

Thus your comparisons are frankly illogical and false, and that's without going into the differences between committing a crime of terrorism and other forms of crimes.

rathi said:

The world is full of really nasty characters, but that doesn't justify killing innocent civilians just to get at them. Its unacceptable for drone operators who are no personal risk to destroy obvious civilians locations like cafes and then pretend to be avoiding collateral damage.

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It's unacceptable for you to claim that American soldiers are targeting innocent civilians.(your claim that they just "pretend to avoid collateral damage", which I find to be outrageous)

American soldiers have no intention to cause civilian deaths and their activity in foreign lands are completely in accordance with international law, period.

Wiggen said:

No, it merely means they give tacit approval to them. Turkey is one of the most anti-American countries on the planet, which is ironic considering the billions and billions of tax dollars the American people have given them.

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You damn well know that military aid is given to politicians or generals and the public never sees a dime. Expecting the people to be "grateful" because we buy off their politicians is the kind of self absorbed hypocritical bull**** that is precisely why people aren't so fond of us currently.

Our foreign policy in the 15 years has killed a lot of people and pissed off even more. Sometimes its justified to step on some toes, other times its stupid, but either way a superpower has no business throwing a bitch fit over why we aren't loved.

The U.S. relationship with Turkey was created for strategic concerns and should only end for the same reasons.

rathi said:

This particular group are Erdogans political enemies and there is zero chance he would give them political cover.

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Yeah, but he hates America more than he hates them. So do the majority of Turks.

rathi said:

You damn well know that military aid is given to politicians or generals and the public never sees a dime. Expecting the people to be "grateful" because we buy off their politicians is the kind of self absorbed hypocritical bull**** that is precisely why people aren't so fond of us currently.

Our foreign policy in the 15 years has killed a lot of people and pissed off even more. Sometimes its justified to step on some toes, other times its stupid, but either way a superpower has no business throwing a bitch fit over why we aren't loved.

The U.S. relationship with Turkey was created for strategic concerns and should only end for the same reasons.

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I don't give a crap whether Turkey loves us or not. I just want us totally disengaged from those worthless bastards. Screw them. Let them go play with the Russians or the Chinese.

DiAnna said:

US Sailors Victims of Videotaped Attack in Istanbul - ABC News

Three U.S. sailors were assaulted today by about 20 people on the streets of Istanbul, Turkey, and the assault was videotaped and then posted on the internet, the Navy said.The American embassy said the videotaped assault on the sailors was "appalling."

The Navy said the sailors were on leave from the destroyer USS Ross when about 20 people who claimed to be from the Turkish Youth Union began "verbally and physically assaulting the sailors."[/FONT][/COLOR]

The video shows one of the Turks telling the Americans, "We define you as murderers and killers and want you to get out of our land."

The sailors were then shoved and had things thrown at them. Several of the Turkish men tried to grab one American sailor and white bags were produced which they tried to put over the sailors' head while other Turks chanted, "Go home, Yankee." The sailors wrenched themselves free."

WTF? Turkey is one of our NATO allies, but they allow a cowardly gang of thugs to attack three US sailors? Where the hell were the Turkish police? These sailors were dressed in civilian clothes, yet they were deliberately rooted out, roughed up, had bags shoved over their heads, then they were chased by nearly two dozen of these assholes. And the Turkish government says..... *crickets*.....

Why is Turkey even a part of NATO anyway? It refuses to allow US use of NATO bases in Turkey, it thwarts the US at every turn. Since when does Turkey have the right to pick and choose which NATO countries are "allowed" to use NATO bases, most of which were paid for in large part by US funds. This really chaps my hide.

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Sounds to me like it's time to have a "Dungaree Liberty," and go on a Turkey hunt. If you're NAVY, you know what that means.

Wiggen said:

I don't give a crap whether Turkey loves us or not. I just want us totally disengaged from those worthless bastards. Screw them. Let them go play with the Russians or the Chinese.

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Turkey has requested $4,834,000 in aid for 2015, not a great deal. But if the EU does not allow Turkey entry I don't see their continuing NATO involvement as necessary either. Given recent events with the Kurds. and the rise of Islamism, they are not above suspicion.

Apocalypse said:

Alright I'll give you the full answer since you insist on being wrong here:

If an American citizen commits crimes of violence on Mexican soil and then resorts to American soil, the Mexicans wouldn't have legitimacy in bombing American soil and targeting the criminal.
If an Afghan citizen commits crimes of terrorism on another state's soil and then resorts to Afghan soil, the attacked state has every legitimacy to bomb Afghan soil and target the terrorist.

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Except that we aren't keeping our drone strikes in Afghanistan, they are in other countries that we aren't even in an undeclared war with, like Yemen.

1) America is able to capture its citizens that committed crimes of violence on Mexican soil and bring them to justice, hence Mexico has no right to violate its sovereignty.

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Are you joking? Do you seriously think that drug cartels don't operate in the United States? We try and arrest them of course, but we aren't capable of stopping them.

2) Afghanistan has proven it is simply incapable of capturing and bringing to justice its citizens that are committing acts of terrorism on foreign soil, hence the state that they target has every right to violate their sovereignty and pursue the attackers. That's recognized by international law and really should be obvious.

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Why don't you cite the "international law" authorizing violating sovereign rights to pursue criminals. You won't, because it doesn't exist.

.
It's unacceptable for you to claim that American soldiers are targeting innocent civilians.(your claim that they just "pretend to avoid collateral damage", which I find to be outrageous)

American soldiers have no intention to cause civilian deaths and their activity in foreign lands are completely in accordance with international law, period.

Click to expand...

On October 14, 2011 a drone attacked an open air cafe in Yemen during the day. This was not a terrorist training camp, weapons cache or vehicle convoy, it was a place where regular people were going to eat. It was not an accident, the drone operator knew before they pulled the trigger that firing the missile was inevitably going to kill innocent civilians.

Agreed. I'm about to the stage where I think an independent Kurdistan is a great idea. Anything Turkey, Iraq, and Syria are against is sounding pretty good to me right now.

rathi said:

Except that we aren't keeping our drone strikes in Afghanistan, they are in other countries that we aren't even in an undeclared war with, like Yemen.



Are you joking? Do you seriously think that drug cartels don't operate in the United States? We try and arrest them of course, but we aren't capable of stopping them.



Why don't you cite the "international law" authorizing violating sovereign rights to pursue criminals. You won't, because it doesn't exist.



On October 14, 2011 a drone attacked an open air cafe in Yemen during the day. This was not a terrorist training camp, weapons cache or vehicle convoy, it was a place where regular people were going to eat. It was not an accident, the drone operator knew before they pulled the trigger that firing the missile was inevitably going to kill innocent civilians.

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Is the drone operator a friend of yours? Or is this information gleaned from the usual sources? You seem to have inside knowledge as to the state of mind of the drone operator, so I assume you know him personally and he has told you he just wanted to kill him some civilians?

I was stationed in Germany when I was in the Army.

At about 3 million heads Turks form the largest ethnic minority in Germany.

As you would expect, the majority of them are clustered in urban areas which, as you also might expect, is where we as GIs would head on the weekend to do a little drinking and whoring (I'm looking at you, Frankfurt am Main).

I think there were very few such weekends that my group of buddies and I didn't get into some kind of altercation with a pack of mangy, rabid Turks.

Sometimes it was name calling, sometimes pushing and shoving, frequently such encounters devolved into knock down, drag out brawls.

I still have scars on my scalp from some of these incidents (Turks like knives and beer bottles and they don't exactly fight fair). I have a buddy whose hand is crooked to this day from a broken wrist he sustained in one of the more savage beatings we took. And make no mistake, when it's 8 Americans in a crowd of 20 Turks, on the dimly-lit back streets of the seediest part of some foreign city where even the natural local nationals aren't all that crazy about you, you're going to take some EPIC beatings, and we did.

Ummmm...

So ****ing what?

We're talking about U.S. servicemen here.

People who are PAID to fight.

If you can't hold your own against a pack of Turks, or if you really feel the need to have society help you gently wipe the sand out of your mangina after getting your collective tail kicked by the same, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work?

soot said:

I was stationed in Germany when I was in the Army.

At about 3 million heads Turks form the largest ethnic minority in Germany.

As you would expect, the majority of them are clustered in urban areas which, as you also might expect, is where we as GIs would head on the weekend to do a little drinking and whoring (I'm looking at you, Frankfurt am Main).

I think there were very few such weekends that my group of buddies and I didn't get into some kind of altercation with a pack of mangy, rabid Turks.

Sometimes it was name calling, sometimes pushing and shoving, frequently such encounters devolved into knock down, drag out brawls.

Ummmm...

So ****ing what?

We're talking about U.S. servicemen here.

People who are PAID to fight.

If you can't hold your own against a pack of Turks, or if you really feel the need to have society help you gently wipe the sand out of your mangina after getting your collective tail kicked by the same, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work?

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Yeah, what's the matter with those sailors? Three of them should have been able to handle a 'mangy' pack of 20 without any difficulty. :lamo

Wiggen said:

Yeah, what's the matter with those sailors? Three of them should have been able to handle a 'mangy' pack of 20 without any difficulty. :lamo

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I'm not suggesting that they should have.

They just shouldn't have made an international ****ing incident out of it.

Take your beating, lick your wounds, laugh about it with your buddies over beers 20 years later.

No big deal.

It was just a beating.

Wiggen said:

I don't give a crap whether Turkey loves us or not. I just want us totally disengaged from those worthless bastards. Screw them. Let them go play with the Russians or the Chinese.

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Turkey has been a highly valuable in the past, both during the cold war and the Gulf. Even given current problems, its not worth throwing away such a partnership based on someone being in a pissy mood.

soot said:

I'm not suggesting that they should have.

They just shouldn't have made an international ****ing incident out of it.

Take your beating, lick your wounds, laugh about it with your buddies over beers 20 years later.

No big deal.

It was just a beating.

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They didn't make an international incident of it. The mangy Turks did by videotaping it and putting it on the Internet.

Wiggen said:

No, it merely means they give tacit approval to them. Turkey is one of the most anti-American countries on the planet, which is ironic considering the billions and billions of tax dollars the American people have given them.

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To be fair, Turkey generally hates most nations (Muslim or otherwise). America is not singled out, but is rather the norm.

rathi said:

Turkey has been a highly valuable in the past, both during the cold war and the Gulf. Even given current problems, its not worth throwing away such a partnership based on someone being in a pissy mood.

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How exactly have them been highly valuable during the Gulf war? They refused to allow Incirlik to be used in the air war and denied the US the opportunity to send troops into Iraq across their border - something they apparently have no difficulty with as far as ISIS is concerned. And the cold war ended 25 years ago. They are worthless as an ally, and the sooner we are done with them, the better. We don't need them.

rathi said:

Except that we aren't keeping our drone strikes in Afghanistan, they are in other countries that we aren't even in an undeclared war with, like Yemen.

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You're only making the point stronger as Yemen too is a country that has proven it cannot pursue its citizens that commit international terrorism and bring them to justice. I don't see what's there not to understand here, it's one of the rare cases when international law aligns with actual common sense and allows the states that are targeted by these terrorists to pursue them and bring them to justice as if they won't no one will.

Are you joking? Do you seriously think that drug cartels don't operate in the United States? We try and arrest them of course, but we aren't capable of stopping them.

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Never said it doesn't operate in the US do read more carefully, I did say however that the US as a functioning developed country with a functioning law enforcement is able to act against its criminal citizens and thus a third party has no legitimacy in committing strikes on US soil. Again this should be obvious.

Why don't you cite the "international law" authorizing violating sovereign rights to pursue criminals. You won't, because it doesn't exist.

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Your ignorance is only matched by your rudeness.
Self-defence in international law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Article 51 of the UN charter, for example, allows nations to use force on other nations' soil in self-defense, and this was the justification raised by the US over its attacks on Afghanistan.

On October 14, 2011 a drone attacked an open air cafe in Yemen during the day. This was not a terrorist training camp, weapons cache or vehicle convoy, it was a place where regular people were going to eat. It was not an accident, the drone operator knew before they pulled the trigger that firing the missile was inevitably going to kill innocent civilians.

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the incident but I do know that in previous cases when a soldier acted rogue and committed crimes against civilians he was punished by the US military, so your claim that US soldiers are targeting civilians is simply wrong.

Wiggen said:

Is the drone operator a friend of yours? Or is this information gleaned from the usual sources? You seem to have inside knowledge as to the state of mind of the drone operator, so I assume you know him personally and he has told you he just wanted to kill him some civilians?

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If you shoot missile into a cafe filled with civilians, you are making a deliberate choice to kill innocent people. I don't know if wanted to do it or not, but he still did regardless of his feelings on the matter.

Amadeus said:

To be fair, Turkey generally hates most nations (Muslim or otherwise). America is not singled out, but is rather the norm.

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Perhaps, but that attitude is fostered and encouraged by the Turkish government. And there is a special level of hatred reserved for America.

ÖMER TA

rathi said:

If you shoot missile into a cafe filled with civilians, you are making a deliberate choice to kill innocent people. I don't know if wanted to do it or not, but he still did regardless of his feelings on the matter.

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But you claimed he did want to do it, and did so knowingly. I'm getting the feeling from reading your posts that you really don't like your own country very much, and like nothing better than posting how evil it is. Which is OK, I guess. There are a lot of American servicemen, past and present, who have given you that right.

DiAnna said:

US Sailors Victims of Videotaped Attack in Istanbul - ABC News

Three U.S. sailors were assaulted today by about 20 people on the streets of Istanbul, Turkey, and the assault was videotaped and then posted on the internet, the Navy said.The American embassy said the videotaped assault on the sailors was "appalling."

The Navy said the sailors were on leave from the destroyer USS Ross when about 20 people who claimed to be from the Turkish Youth Union began "verbally and physically assaulting the sailors."[/FONT][/COLOR]

The video shows one of the Turks telling the Americans, "We define you as murderers and killers and want you to get out of our land."

The sailors were then shoved and had things thrown at them. Several of the Turkish men tried to grab one American sailor and white bags were produced which they tried to put over the sailors' head while other Turks chanted, "Go home, Yankee." The sailors wrenched themselves free."

WTF? Turkey is one of our NATO allies, but they allow a cowardly gang of thugs to attack three US sailors? Where the hell were the Turkish police? These sailors were dressed in civilian clothes, yet they were deliberately rooted out, roughed up, had bags shoved over their heads, then they were chased by nearly two dozen of these assholes. And the Turkish government says..... *crickets*.....

Why is Turkey even a part of NATO anyway? It refuses to allow US use of NATO bases in Turkey, it thwarts the US at every turn. Since when does Turkey have the right to pick and choose which NATO countries are "allowed" to use NATO bases, most of which were paid for in large part by US funds. This really chaps my hide.

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So you would allow Turkey to use our bases if they let us use theirs?

Wiggen said:

Perhaps, but that attitude is fostered and encouraged by the Turkish government. And there is a special level of hatred reserved for America.

ÖMER TA

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Turks can be useful on occasion but not too much should ever be expected from them.

Apocalypse said:

You're only making the point stronger as Yemen too is a country that has proven it cannot pursue its citizens that commit international terrorism and bring them to justice. I don't see what's there not to understand here, it's one of the rare cases when international law aligns with actual common sense and allows the states that are targeted by these terrorists to pursue them and bring them to justice as if they won't no one will.

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Why don't you name the acts of international terrorism that Yemeni citizens have been committing?

Never said it doesn't operate in the US do read more carefully, I did say however that the US as a functioning developed country with a functioning law enforcement is able to act against its criminal citizens and thus a third party has no legitimacy in committing strikes on US soil. Again this should be obvious.

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Drug cartels are responsible for thousands of murders in the U.S. and even more in Mexico. International terrorism kills far less people.

Article 51 of the UN charter, for example, allows nations to use force on other nations' soil in self-defense, and this was the justification raised by the US over its attacks on Afghanistan.

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Since when have Yemeni's started attacking the united states?

I'm not familiar with the incident but I do know that in previous cases when a soldier acted rogue and committed crimes against civilians he was punished by the US military, so your claim that US soldiers are targeting civilians is a simply wrong.

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The person operating the drone I mentioned was probably part of the CIA, not a soldier. Nonetheless, you have been unable to answer how shooting a missile into a cafe can be anything but deliberately targeting civilians. Maybe they only really wanted to kill one guy and didn't care about the rest, but they knew what would happen before the pulled the trigger.

it is called revenge.yankees had done the same thing to our soldiers in northern ıraq in 2003


now yankees are thugs ?