• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New Russian Boldness Revives a Cold War Tradition: Testing the Other Side

<<<CONTINUED>>>


These initially peaceful protests resulted in a Russian puppet at the direct behest of Putin, sending in his jack booted thugs to attack and murder the protesters on November 30th 2013:

Putin pressured Yanukovych to crack down on the Maidan protesters. Ukrainska Pravda found that the notebooks of Yanukovych's security chief, Kostyantyn Kobzar, detail a private meeting between the two leaders at Putin's residence at Valdai on January 8, as the Maidan protests continued to grow.


What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled | New Republic


Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions
Violent dispersal of pro-European protesters sparks opposition demand for trade embargo


Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions | World news | The Guardian

The assertions that the snipers were protesters rather than Yanukovych Russian backed jack booted thugs is pure propaganda:


15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.

"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."

Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.

"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."

She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.

"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."


Ukraine crisis: March 5 as it happened - Telegraph


Ukraine's special police shot dead dozens of anti-government protesters in Kiev in February, an initial government inquiry has found.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told reporters 12 members of the Berkut police had been identified and three of them had been already arrested.


The inquiry relates to the shootings on Instytutska street in Kiev, where 76 people were killed on 18-20 February......

Meanwhile, Ukrainian Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko said that Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) operatives had been involved in planning operations against the protesters. ....


BBC News - Special police shot Kiev protesters, inquiry says

This resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory:

Ukraine’s parliament votes to oust president; former prime minister is freed from prison
Ukraine

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>
 
<<<CONTINUED>>>


Then what happened next is Russia invaded, occupied, installed an occupation government with Spec Ops holding AKs and rocket launchers in the Crimean parliamentary building during the swearing in of a new Crimean "prime minister" and this was followed by the outright illegal annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory by the Russian Federation through a fraudulent and illegal referendum in which only two options were offered cessation or annexation rather than maintaining the status quo and which violated both the Crimean and Ukrainian Constitutions:

Following the Ukrainian revolution, on February 27 an emergency session was held in the Crimean legislature while it was occupied by armed pro-Russian forces.[4] The masked gunmen identified themselves as members of Crimea’s "self-defense forces", all of which are, according to Aksyonov, directly under his control.[4] After sealing the doors and confiscating all mobile phones, the MPs who had been invited by Aksyonov to enter the building, passed the motion in the presence of the gunmen armed with Kalashnikov's and rocket launchers.[11][4][12][9]

Sergey Aksyonov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As we ALL know by now those so called "self defense forces" are Russian troops not wearing a fixed insignia in overt violation of the laws and customs of war as proven by video recordings of them admitting that they are Russian troops, as well as, the types of uniforms and weapons they are carrying which are exclusive to Russian special forces, not to mention that Russia has finally admitted it:

The presence of Russian troops is acknowledged by new Crimean leader Sergei Aksyenov.[56] The troops were subsequently identified, based on their battle dress and equipment, as belonging to the 45th Spetsnaz Regiment, which has previously been deployed to conflicts such as Georgia and Kyrgyzstan.[80]

2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aksenov acknowledged Saturday that Russian troops were protecting key sites in Crimea.

“We have established cooperation with the Black Sea Fleet in protecting the important assets,” Aksenov said in televised remarks. “I am sure they can carry out tasks to protect public order.”


New Crimea leaders move up referendum date - LA Times

Crimea Invaded By High Readiness Forces Of The Russian Federation

Venalaiset_erikoisjoukot_kr_0.jpg


Venalaiset_erikoisjoukot_kr_0.jpg


Unknown soldiers - upper picture.

- New EMR camouflage combat uniforms used only by Russian Federation forces

- New 6sh112 tactical vest used only by Russian Federation forces

- New 6B27 composite helmet used only by Russian Federation forces

- New 7,62 mm PKP machine guns used only by Russian Federation forces

- Russian 5,45 mm AK74M assault rifles

As a conclusion it is evident that the troops in question are high readiness troops of the Russian Federation.

Unknonw soldiers - lower picture.

- 6B26 composite helmets used only by airborne troops of the Russian Federation

- Russian 5,45 mm AK74M assault rifles

Soldier on the left:

- New EMR-camouflage combat uniform used only by Russian Federation forces

- 6SH92-5 tactical vest used only by airborne troops of the Russian Federation

Soldier on the right:

- Russian special forces and mountain troops Gorka-3 combat uniform used only by Russian Federation forces

- Russian special forces Smersh AK/VOG tactical vest used only by Russian Federation forces

With a 99 % probability we argue that these troops are the 45th Guards Separate Reconnaissance Regiment of VDV (Russian: 45-й гвардейский отдельный разведывательный ордена Александра Невского полк ВДВ), Kubinka, Moscow.


Crimea Invaded By High Readiness Forces Of The Russian Federation | Suomen Sotilas

Ukraine crisis: 'Russians' occupy Crimea airports


The BBC has seen eight trucks with the black plates of the Russian army moving towards Simferopol

Unconfirmed reports say eight Russian military helicopters have arrived in Sevastopol


BBC News - Ukraine crisis: 'Russians' occupy Crimea airports[/QUOTE]



Ukraine crisis: 'Russians' occupy Crimea airports


The BBC has seen eight trucks with the black plates of the Russian army moving towards Simferopol

Unconfirmed reports say eight Russian military helicopters have arrived in Sevastopol


BBC News - Ukraine crisis: 'Russians' occupy Crimea airports

Russia has vowed its troops will remain in Ukraine to protect Russian interests and citizens until the political situation has been "normalised".


Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia was defending human rights against "ultra-nationalist threats".

Russia is now in de facto military control of the Crimea region, despite Western condemnation of a "violation of Ukraine's sovereignty".


BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Russia vows troops will stay

Russian foreign ministry admits to entering Crimea from its Black Sea Fleet base as the Ukraine's interior minister accuses country of 'armed invasion'

Ukraine crisis live: President Barack Obama warns of 'costs' for any violation of Ukraine - Telegraph


Russia admits that it has moved troops in Ukraine

Russia has finally confirmed that it has moved troops into Ukraine's restive Crimea region, after speculation about Moscow's involvement

Russia admits that it has moved troops in Ukraine - Telegraph

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>
 
<<<CONTINUED>>>


Article 72.

An All-Ukrainian referendum is designated by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine or by the President of Ukraine, in accordance with their authority established by this Constitution.

An All-Ukrainian referendum is called on popular initiative on the request of no less than three million citizens of Ukraine who have the right to vote, on the condition that the signatures in favour of designating the referendum have been collected i n no less than two-thirds of the oblasts, with no less than 100 000 signatures in each oblast.

Article 73.

Issues of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum.


http://www.legislationline.org/documents/action/popup/id/7111

It was not only illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution but under the Crimean Constitution as well:

7
In order for the referendum to be constitutional and legal, it would be required that the issues put before the voters be issues which can be the object of a local referendum under the Constitutions of Ukraine and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. The Constitution of Ukraine enjoys supremacy over the Constitution of Crimea as an autonomous republic. Ukraine is a unitary state (Article 2 of the Constitution of Ukraine). According to Article 132 of the Constitution of Ukraine, “the territorial structure of Ukraine is based on the principles of unity and indivisibility of the state territory, the combination of centralization and decentralization in the exercise of state power, and the balanced socioeconomic development of regions (...)”. Under Article 134 of the Constitution of Ukraine, “the Autonomous Republic of Crimea is an inseparable constituent part of Ukraine and decides on the issues ascribed to its competence within the limits of authority determined by the Constitution of Ukraine”. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea therefore enjoys autonomy only to the extent that powers were transferred to it by the Constitution of Ukraine
.
8
.
Accordingly, Article 135 of the Constitution of Ukraine holds that, “regulatory legal acts of the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and decisions of the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall not contradict the Constitution and laws of Ukraine and shall be adopted in accordance wit h and in pursuance of the Constitution of Ukraine, laws of Ukraine, acts of the President of Ukraine and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine”. A corresponding provision is included in Article 28 of the Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea: “The statutory acts of the Supreme Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea upon any and all matters regarding the powers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall conform to the Constitution of Ukraine and Ukrainian laws.” An act by an authority of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea which is contrary to the Constitution of Ukraine is therefore also contrary to the Constitution of Crimea.


http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2014)002-e

This illegal invasion, occupation, and annexation was deemed illegal by the vast majority of the UNGA:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262

The resolution, which was supported by 100 United Nations member states, affirmed the United Nations commitment to recognize Crimea within Ukraine’s international borders and underscored the invalidity of the 2014 Crimean referendum. Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe all voted against the resolution. There were also 58 abstentions, and a further 24 states did not vote through being absent when the vote took place.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region

General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

Even the UNSC voted against it and had it not been for Russia's permanent member status it would have passed, even China abstained which was tantamount to a yes vote:

15 March 2014 – Owing to the negative vote of one of its permanent members, the United Nations Security Council today failed to adopt a draft resolution which urged countries not to recognize the results of this weekend's referendum in Crimea.

Thirteen of the Council's 15 members voted in favour of the draft text, Russia voted against, and China abstained. A veto by any of the Council's five permanent members – China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States – means a resolution cannot be adopted.


United Nations News Centre - UN Security Council action on Crimea referendum blocked

Furthermore; the only mass murder of Ukrainians in the East was and is conducted and being conducted by the Russian funded, armed, trained and directed terrorists against ethnic Ukrainians and that is not according to me it is according to the United Nations Human Rights investigators into the matter:




“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”


They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0
 
<<<CONTINUED>>>


Article 72.

An All-Ukrainian referendum is designated by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine or by the President of Ukraine, in accordance with their authority established by this Constitution.

An All-Ukrainian referendum is called on popular initiative on the request of no less than three million citizens of Ukraine who have the right to vote, on the condition that the signatures in favour of designating the referendum have been collected i n no less than two-thirds of the oblasts, with no less than 100 000 signatures in each oblast.

Article 73.

Issues of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum.


http://www.legislationline.org/documents/action/popup/id/7111

It was not only illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution but under the Crimean Constitution as well:

7
In order for the referendum to be constitutional and legal, it would be required that the issues put before the voters be issues which can be the object of a local referendum under the Constitutions of Ukraine and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. The Constitution of Ukraine enjoys supremacy over the Constitution of Crimea as an autonomous republic. Ukraine is a unitary state (Article 2 of the Constitution of Ukraine). According to Article 132 of the Constitution of Ukraine, “the territorial structure of Ukraine is based on the principles of unity and indivisibility of the state territory, the combination of centralization and decentralization in the exercise of state power, and the balanced socioeconomic development of regions (...)”. Under Article 134 of the Constitution of Ukraine, “the Autonomous Republic of Crimea is an inseparable constituent part of Ukraine and decides on the issues ascribed to its competence within the limits of authority determined by the Constitution of Ukraine”. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea therefore enjoys autonomy only to the extent that powers were transferred to it by the Constitution of Ukraine
.
8
.
Accordingly, Article 135 of the Constitution of Ukraine holds that, “regulatory legal acts of the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and decisions of the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall not contradict the Constitution and laws of Ukraine and shall be adopted in accordance wit h and in pursuance of the Constitution of Ukraine, laws of Ukraine, acts of the President of Ukraine and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine”. A corresponding provision is included in Article 28 of the Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea: “The statutory acts of the Supreme Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea upon any and all matters regarding the powers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall conform to the Constitution of Ukraine and Ukrainian laws.” An act by an authority of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea which is contrary to the Constitution of Ukraine is therefore also contrary to the Constitution of Crimea.


http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2014)002-e

This illegal invasion, occupation, and annexation was deemed illegal by the vast majority of the UNGA:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262

The resolution, which was supported by 100 United Nations member states, affirmed the United Nations commitment to recognize Crimea within Ukraine’s international borders and underscored the invalidity of the 2014 Crimean referendum. Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe all voted against the resolution. There were also 58 abstentions, and a further 24 states did not vote through being absent when the vote took place.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region

General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

Even the UNSC voted against it and had it not been for Russia's permanent member status it would have passed, even China abstained which was tantamount to a yes vote:

15 March 2014 – Owing to the negative vote of one of its permanent members, the United Nations Security Council today failed to adopt a draft resolution which urged countries not to recognize the results of this weekend's referendum in Crimea.

Thirteen of the Council's 15 members voted in favour of the draft text, Russia voted against, and China abstained. A veto by any of the Council's five permanent members – China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States – means a resolution cannot be adopted.


United Nations News Centre - UN Security Council action on Crimea referendum blocked

Furthermore; the only mass murder of Ukrainians in the East was and is conducted and being conducted by the Russian funded, armed, trained and directed terrorists against ethnic Ukrainians and that is not according to me it is according to the United Nations Human Rights investigators into the matter:




“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”


They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0


Russia has a base in Crimea

E.u. Sanctioned Ukraine because of response to attempted coup

Crimea voted to stay with Russia, e.u does not care

E.u. Sanctioned Russia for moving in troops to protect base

Malaysian aircraft was shot down by "ukranian anti e.u. Rebels with Russian arms" Russia asked for prove, non was given.

These are all things that happened, and tell me why the hell do we as the u.s.a need to be involved in any of this at all?
 
Russia has a base in Crimea
Russia LEASED a base in Crimea from the rightful owner... Ukraine.

E.u. Sanctioned Ukraine because of response to attempted coup
The EU never sanctioned Ukraine.

Crimea voted to stay with Russia, e.u does not care
Referendum was illegal under both constitutions (Ukraine/Crimea) and held during an armed occupation.

E.u. Sanctioned Russia for moving in troops to protect base
EU initially sanctioned Russia for the illegal annexation of Crimea.

Malaysian aircraft was shot down by "ukranian anti e.u. Rebels with Russian arms" Russia asked for prove, non was given.
The forensic investigation is still underway. The rebels tampered with the crash site evidence.

These are all things that happened, and tell me why the hell do we as the u.s.a need to be involved in any of this at all?
Because the executive and legislative branches of your government deem it important.
 
Simpleχity;1063955445 said:
Russia LEASED a base in Crimea from the rightful owner... Ukraine.


The EU never sanctioned Ukraine.


Referendum was illegal under both constitutions (Ukraine/Crimea) and held during an armed occupation.


EU initially sanctioned Russia for the illegal annexation of Crimea.


The forensic investigation is still underway. The rebels tampered with the crash site evidence.


Because the executive and legislative branches of your government deem it important.

So they lease a base catherine the great created 200 years ago, that they along with 95% of the people there believe is russian and when Ukraine becomes e.u. they're supposed to just say oo well whatever WHO CARES

EU foreign ministers agree sanctions against Ukrainian officials | World news | The Guardian

Ok who cares if a region wants to stay with russia right? Its not legal...

Illegal annexation of 96 percent people that want to be russian, why does E.U. And us always fight against democratic functions

The rebels tampered with crash site evidence, however the Ukrainian air control sent the plane over a war zone

Important for me HOW? HOW IS IT IMPORTANT TO ME? What will i benefit from it? Why does the E.U. care so much if crimea joins Russia, WHO CARES. We are obviously the agitators. Just leave it alone were already fighting like 3 fronts as it is the last thing we need right now is a war with Russia
 
So they lease a base catherine the great created 200 years ago, that they along with 95% of the people there believe is russian and when Ukraine becomes e.u. they're supposed to just say oo well whatever WHO CARES
Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukraine 60 years ago.

Ok who cares if a region wants to stay with russia right? Its not legal.
If people wanted to live in Russia they could have emigrated.

Illegal annexation of 96 percent people that want to be russian, why does E.U. And us always fight against democratic functions
Holding a referendum under occupation while violating two constitutions is not what I consider democratic.

The rebels tampered with crash site evidence, however the Ukrainian air control sent the plane over a war zone
The airlines submitted the flight paths. No one had an inkling that the rebels had obtained a BUK missile system.

Important for me HOW? HOW IS IT IMPORTANT TO ME?
I suggest you hash that out with your elected representatives.
 
There was forensic evidence showing cannon fire struck MH17.

Kiev and the Pentagon & NATO are lying, trying to frame Russia and the rebels.

The media has bought into it, hook, line & sinker. NOT for the first time. Lapdog media are disgusting.
 
Putin is such an arrogant prick child. He could be engaging the problems of the world instead of creating them. What an ignorant self-absorbed bastard ego-maniac.

Yep. And expect it to get worse in the next 2 years.
 
Russia has a base in Crimea

Under a treaty requiring them not to leave the base, that is not Cassus Belli to invade in any way, shape, or form.

E.u. Sanctioned Ukraine because of response to attempted coup

Wrong, Russia declared economic warfare on Ukraine through a trade embargo in response to Yanukovych attempting to join into an associate agreement with the EU which the majority of Ukrainians supported.

Crimea voted to stay with Russia, e.u does not care

The Crimea is sovereign Ukrainian territory, the "vote" was conducted under an illegal foreign military occupation, through a foreign installed occupation government whose "Prime Minister" had his swearing in ceremony shoulder to shoulder with Russian Spec Ops holding AKs and Rocket Launchers in the Parliament building, the vote violated both the Crimean and Ukrainian Constitutions, it only offered two options secession or annexation into the Russian Federation rather than the third option of maintaining the status quo, it has been condemned as illegal by the UNGA, it would have been condemned illegal by the UNSC if not for the Russian automatic veto thanks to their Permanent Member status (even China abstained) and anyone who believes a 97.5% yay vote for annexation is indicative of a free and fair vote is not playing with a full deck.

E.u. Sanctioned Russia for moving in troops to protect base

I have already provided you the evidence that they were off base and seizing key locations throughout the Crimea in overt violation of the treaty with the Ukraine regarding the base.

Malaysian aircraft was shot down by "ukranian anti e.u. Rebels with Russian arms" Russia asked for prove, non was given.

The evidence has been presented, I suggest you look into the German investigation:

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.

Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.


German Intelligence Blames Pro Russian Separatists for MH17 Downing - SPIEGEL ONLINE

These are all things that happened, and tell me why the hell do we as the u.s.a need to be involved in any of this at all?

Because Russia in an unprovoked war of aggression invaded, occupied and annexed the territory of a sovereign nation.
 
Simpleχity;1063957426 said:
All forensic evidence is consistent with BUK system (SA-11) missile shrapnel.

Wreckage Offers Clues on Why Flight 17 Went Down

Not really.

There were pictures early on of the outboard section (top) of the left wing which clearly showed the just-on-the-painted-surface track of one of the many cannon rounds. The left side of the cockpit showed the impact points (and penetration) by the rounds fired. The track on the wing aligned exactly with the cockpit damage.

Cannon fire, NOT schrapnel damage from a BUK. It is entirely possible that some sort of ATG weapon was used, but there is no question that some cannon fire was involved. Peasants in the area reported seeing and hearing military fighter type aircraft climbing in the moments before, and the shenanigans reported regarding ATC instructions regarding altitude and routing support such deception.
 
The remaining parts of the downed jet are being prepared to be sent to the Netherlands for reconstruction and forensic testing.

Investigators have said (July Report) that photographic evidence is consistent with shrapnel from an anti-air missile.
 
There was forensic evidence showing cannon fire struck MH17.

Kiev and the Pentagon & NATO are lying, trying to frame Russia and the rebels.

The media has bought into it, hook, line & sinker. NOT for the first time. Lapdog media are disgusting.

As is state-sponsored media and public relations personnel who covertly infiltrate the Internet and wherever MOTHER RUSSIA!~ is spoken of negatively, there they are doing what they can to deflect criticism upon itself unto the U.S. or the West in general. That's the thing about the left-wing in America, they have been infiltrated by the Russians before. Not helping matters much was during the Cold War, the propaganda and disinformation the C.I.A. was pumping out often enough got picked up on by the American media and therefore was disseminated to the American people.

Now, we've had friendly exchanges for quite a long time, but I've noticed something peculiar about your posting style, the things you say, etc etc, so I need to ask you something: do you prefer Russia over the United States, your alleged home country.
 
As is state-sponsored media and public relations personnel who covertly infiltrate the Internet and wherever MOTHER RUSSIA!~ is spoken of negatively, there they are doing what they can to deflect criticism upon itself unto the U.S. or the West in general. That's the thing about the left-wing in America, they have been infiltrated by the Russians before. Not helping matters much was during the Cold War, the propaganda and disinformation the C.I.A. was pumping out often enough got picked up on by the American media and therefore was disseminated to the American people.

Now, we've had friendly exchanges for quite a long time, but I've noticed something peculiar about your posting style, the things you say, etc etc, so I need to ask you something: do you prefer Russia over the United States, your alleged home country.

What do you mean 'prefer'?

Prefer to live there? Prefer to visit there? Prefer Russian Art over American Art? Literature? Women?

All governments spin the news, no doubt. Most people know that.
 
Not really.

There were pictures early on of the outboard section (top) of the left wing which clearly showed the just-on-the-painted-surface track of one of the many cannon rounds. The left side of the cockpit showed the impact points (and penetration) by the rounds fired. The track on the wing aligned exactly with the cockpit damage.

Cannon fire, NOT schrapnel damage from a BUK. It is entirely possible that some sort of ATG weapon was used, but there is no question that some cannon fire was involved. Peasants in the area reported seeing and hearing military fighter type aircraft climbing in the moments before, and the shenanigans reported regarding ATC instructions regarding altitude and routing support such deception.

Absolute nonsense, they were not indicative of cannon rounds, they clearly showed shrapnel from a missile, missiles do not explode on impact they explode in proximity sending claymore type fragments into the target.
 
Absolute nonsense, they were not indicative of cannon rounds, they clearly showed shrapnel from a missile, missiles do not explode on impact they explode in proximity sending claymore type fragments into the target.

We agree to disagree.
 
Forensic results on bodies and the air-frame of MH17 being conducted in the Netherlands will not be completed until spring/summer of 2015.

Investigative Citizen Journalists Report That MH17 Downed by Rebels
November 10, 2014

As President Vladimir Putin accused Kiev of having hindered the official investigation into the downing of passenger plane MH17 in July, a group of investigative reporters have asserted that the plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a missile system taken from Russia's military. The investigation, titled “Origin of the Separatists' Buk: A Bellingcat Investigation” and conducted by a citizen journalism group, used various sources for its research, including social media, Google Earth satellite imagery, reports by journalists who were on the ground in Ukraine at the time of the plane's downing and interviews with residents near the crash site.

The Moscow Times

The report, released Saturday, is available below.

The Bellingcat Project
 
Back
Top Bottom