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Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

Unrepresented said:
I'm not familiar with the situation you're referencing, but home health workers have historically been unfairly paid. Anyone addressing this (which I'd hope and assume the SEIU would) is doing them a service.

Since when is directly refuting your claim with supporting evidence considered "semantics?"
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There is no evidence the supplement provided by states to people providing care to their family members, the original intent of these programs, was unfair. The whole thing became an industry when the SEIU was given the keys to the kingdom. In California, In Home Support Services grew from an obscure little program that encouraged family members to care for loved ones in their own home, to a $6 billion program with over 250,000 "care givers" in just 3 years. Following on that success, the SEIU followed the recipe and paid off legislatures in other states to enact similar legislation. That is how Illinois got into the program, and that is home the Supreme Court got involved and put a stop to the scam.

How else do you think the SEIU has got the money to gin up the minimum wage Fast Food ploy? The bulk of the people protesting aren't workers, but SEIU members pretending to be McDonalds employees.

This is why unions like the SEIU and others have the "mafia" reputation so many think they deserve.
 
Unrepresented said:
Undercutting your citizens into low paying jobs hurts both your citizens and the citizens of the states standing up for better conditions and pay.

Taking a low ball offer doesn't make you a winner, it makes the corporation low balling you a winner. Everyone else loses.
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Why are you assuming if it is a non union job it is a low paying job?
 
PoS said:
Corporations pay their workers wages as compensation, they dont work for free you know...
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But they would love if they did work for free! That would be more profits for their rich owners after all.
 
disneydude said:
I don't see many Californians packing up to move to the armpit of the country called Texas. I think thats just another of your pipedreams Conservative. But be careful what you ask for. It Californians truly do move there...they will speed up the shift of Texas to a blue state...and good luck winning national elections when that happens.
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Everybody knows the arm pit of America is New Jersey.
 
PeteEU said:
But they would love if they did work for free! That would be more profits for their rich owners after all.
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Yeah, every single business owner is rich.

It's obvious you've never owned a business before.
 
Unrepresented said:
Since when is directly refuting your claim with supporting evidence considered "semantics?"
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The term "union shop" is common terminology for a business employing union workers.

SEMANTICS
 
ocean515 said:
There is no evidence the supplement provided by states to people providing care to their family members, the original intent of these programs, was unfair. The whole thing became an industry when the SEIU was given the keys to the kingdom. In California, In Home Support Services grew from an obscure little program that encouraged family members to care for loved ones in their own home, to a $6 billion program with over 250,000 "care givers" in just 3 years. Following on that success, the SEIU followed the recipe and paid off legislatures in other states to enact similar legislation. That is how Illinois got into the program, and that is home the Supreme Court got involved and put a stop to the scam.

How else do you think the SEIU has got the money to gin up the minimum wage Fast Food ploy? The bulk of the people protesting aren't workers, but SEIU members pretending to be McDonalds employees.

This is why unions like the SEIU and others have the "mafia" reputation so many think they deserve.
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Again, I'm not an expert on the home service industry, but from what I've read the home service was expanded as an alternative to residential programs for the elderly and disabled. Further, wages have improved because through unionization home health workers are now being paid overtime in California whereas before they were excluded from that basic right.
Mason66 said:
Why are you assuming if it is a non union job it is a low paying job?
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Yes. Union employees earn 10-30% higher than their non union equivalent.
Mason66 said:
That statement is 100% correct.
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No. That statement is giving the entirety of the power to the small minority of business owners rather than sharing that power across the full range of both employers and employees. Everyone should have a legitimate factor in determining fair wages, not just those at the top.
 
Unrepresented said:
Again, I'm not an expert on the home service industry, but from what I've read the home service was expanded as an alternative to residential programs for the elderly and disabled. Further, wages have improved because through unionization home health workers are now being paid overtime in California whereas before they were excluded from that basic right.

Yes. Union employees earn 10-30% higher than their non union equivalent.

No. That statement is giving the entirety of the power to the small minority of business owners rather than sharing that power across the full range of both employers and employees. Everyone should have a legitimate factor in determining fair wages, not just those at the top.
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Overtime? Based on what evidence it was earned or deserved? I'm sure the SEIU email alerts have all sorts of glowing reports on the benefits they have extracted from taxpayers.

When caught by the investigation detailed in the link below, the SEIU drafted a bill for a local representative that effectively buried the states investigation into fraud in the program the SEIU created for itself.

Fraud infects state in-home care program - Los Angeles Times

Today, there remains little in-place-process to police the fraud and abuse encouraged by the SEIU.
 
Unrepresented said:
Yes. Union employees earn 10-30% higher than their non union equivalent.
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That depends on the profession. In many professions, nonunion employees make more than those in unions, sometimes substantially more.

No. That statement is giving the entirety of the power to the small minority of business owners rather than sharing that power across the full range of both employers and employees. Everyone should have a legitimate factor in determining fair wages, not just those at the top.
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By proving their worth to the company, everyone shares the power to control their wages.
 
ocean515 said:
Overtime? Based on what evidence it was earned or deserved? I'm sure the SEIU email alerts have all sorts of glowing reports on the benefits they have extracted from taxpayers.

When caught by the investigation detailed in the link below, the SEIU drafted a bill for a local representative that effectively buried the states investigation into fraud in the program the SEIU created for itself.

Fraud infects state in-home care program - Los Angeles Times

Today, there remains little in-place-process to police the fraud and abuse encouraged by the SEIU.
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"If you are a home care agency or other third party employer,*effective January 1, 2015,*you are required to pay at least the federal minimum wage and overtime pay to any direct care worker you jointly or solely employ, regardless of the worker’s duties. Direct care workers are workers who provide home care services, such as certified nursing assistants, home health aides, personal care aides, caregivers, and companions."
http://www.dol.gov/whd/homecare/agencies-what-are-requirements.htm

These are new protections that nearly every other worker was entitled to and now that they're organizing they're finally getting that loophole closed and will be earning fairer wages.
Gill said:
That depends on the profession. In many professions, nonunion employees make more than those in unions, sometimes substantially more.
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"Union workers average 10-30% higher pay than non-union in the United States after controlling for individual, job, and labor market characteristics."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States
Gill said:
By proving their worth to the company, everyone shares the power to control their wages.
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That reeks of sycophant logic. Why let one side determine how north sides are treated? Everyone should have a say who is affected, not just those at the top.
 
Hard Truth said:
"What the union really wanted, according to Kinkisharyo officials, was clearance to organize the plant without any interference from the company."

Workers have a right to organize.
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companies should have an absolute right to fire someone for being a member of a union
 
Gill said:
Yeah, every single business owner is rich.

It's obvious you've never owned a business before.
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err it said corporation, not business owner..
 
Unrepresented said:
"If you are a home care agency or other third party employer,*effective January 1, 2015,*you are required to pay at least the federal minimum wage and overtime pay to any direct care worker you jointly or solely employ, regardless of the worker’s duties. Direct care workers are workers who provide home care services, such as certified nursing assistants, home health aides, personal care aides, caregivers, and companions."
http://www.dol.gov/whd/homecare/agencies-what-are-requirements.htm

These are new protections that nearly every other worker was entitled to and now that they're organizing they're finally getting that loophole closed and will be earning fairer wages.


"Union workers average 10-30% higher pay than non-union in the United States after controlling for individual, job, and labor market characteristics."

Labor unions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That reeks of sycophant logic. Why let one side determine how north sides are treated? Everyone should have a say who is affected, not just those at the top.
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Again, based on what evidence the overtime work was performed? There is no supervisor, no time clock. Union dues are based on hours worked. Gee, any wonder the SEIU has been pushing for this?
 
Unrepresented said:
"Union workers average 10-30% higher pay than non-union in the United States after controlling for individual, job, and labor market characteristics."

Labor unions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That reeks of sycophant logic. Why let one side determine how north sides are treated? Everyone should have a say who is affected, not just those at the top.
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One more time..... that is only true in some professions. Nonunion employees in many professions make much more than their union counterparts.

Both sides to determine the worth of employees. The employee's work ethic and value to the company informs management of his worth. The market informs the employee of his worth.

This process works just fine for almost 90% of all employees. It has for me. I want to determine my own worth, not some union boss.
 
TurtleDude said:
companies should have an absolute right to fire someone for being a member of a union
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:rolleyes:

Your opinion that corporations are entitled to unchecked levels of exploitation and thuggery is noted.
ocean515 said:
Again, based on what evidence the overtime work was performed? There is no supervisor, no time clock. Union dues are based on hours worked. Gee, any wonder the SEIU has been pushing for this?
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If you're arguing for verifying hours worked to reduce fraud, I'm fine with that. But providing overtime pay for lengthy work and ensuring minimum wage is paid to people seems like a non debate.
 
Unrepresented said:
:rolleyes:

Your opinion that corporations are entitled to unchecked levels of exploitation and thuggery is noted.

If you're arguing for verifying hours worked to reduce fraud, I'm fine with that. But providing overtime pay for lengthy work and ensuring minimum wage is paid to people seems like a non debate.
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There is no evidence that I have seen that overtime was refused. The evidence I have seen is that the hours reported were not worked. Since the "employers" are the people receiving care themselves, and the state is paying for it, what incentive is there to even care what hours are reported? Since dues collected are based on hours worked, what incentive is there for the union to police the people they represent?

As you wrote, you are not informed on the in home support services programs. I am very informed and have been fighting this organized scam for years. If the SEIU was truly as forthright and magnanimous as you're attempting to suggest, the Supreme Court wouldn't have ruled as they did.
 
ocean515 said:
There is no evidence that I have seen that overtime was refused. The evidence I have seen is that the hours reported were not worked. Since the "employers" are the people receiving care themselves, and the state is paying for it, what incentive is there to even care what hours are reported? Since dues collected are based on hours worked, what incentive is there for the union to police the people they represent?

As you wrote, you are not informed on the in home support services programs. I am very informed and have been fighting this organized scam for years. If the SEIU was truly as forthright and magnanimous as you're attempting to suggest, the Supreme Court wouldn't have ruled as they did.
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I think we're discussing two separate issues. I'm talking about the history of home care workers not being covered by the same minimum wage laws and overtime rules that the rest of the nation was, not about billing or current programs.
 
Unrepresented said:
Again, I'm not an expert on the home service industry, but from what I've read the home service was expanded as an alternative to residential programs for the elderly and disabled. Further, wages have improved because through unionization home health workers are now being paid overtime in California whereas before they were excluded from that basic right.

Yes. Union employees earn 10-30% higher than their non union equivalent.

No. That statement is giving the entirety of the power to the small minority of business owners rather than sharing that power across the full range of both employers and employees. Everyone should have a legitimate factor in determining fair wages, not just those at the top.
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Should I be in on the decision on what something is sold for at Wal-Mart?

The store knows what they have to sell it for in order to stay in business, as well as the employer knows what he needs to pay an employee in order to stay in business. The only decision the employee has is to agree with the pay or not.
 
Unrepresented said:
I think we're discussing two separate issues. I'm talking about the history of home care workers not being covered by the same minimum wage laws and overtime rules that the rest of the nation was, not about billing or current programs.
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I think we are talking about the same thing. I am not aware of any home care worker receiving compensation for providing care that was paid less than legally allowed. When it comes to overtime, I am not aware of any method that has been established that can authenticate the hours actually worked, so how does anyone know they actually worked extra hours and weren't compensated for it? If there was no provision for overtime, people probably didn't put in for it. Why would they? Now that it's been established, of course they will put in for it, and the Unions will reap the rewards of additional dues coming from the result.

Before the SEIU turned it into an industry, In Home Support was meant to offset lost wages for a relative or other caregiver who stopped by a couple times a week to make beds, do laundry or take care of other chores around the house. It encouraged people to remain in their homes, rather than be placed into state retirement facilities. 10 hours a week, maybe 12. Once the SEIU turned it into an industry, now the push is for overtime?

This is just another example of a union manipulating the system to the detriment of taxpayers, so they can exploit the system for gain.
 
Mason66 said:
Should I be in on the decision on what something is sold for at Wal-Mart?

The store knows what they have to sell it for in order to stay in business, as well as the employer knows what he needs to pay an employee in order to stay in business. The only decision the employee has is to agree with the pay or not.
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If it means protecting fair wages, ensuring safe products, promoting safer work conditions then yes, we should all be involved in Walmart's pricing. Society has minimal safeguards, but ultimately it's up to organized citizenry to address these issues.
 
Unrepresented said:
If it means protecting fair wages, ensuring safe products, promoting safer work conditions then yes, we should all be involved in Walmart's pricing. Society has minimal safeguards, but ultimately it's up to organized citizenry to address these issues.
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That is where you go off the deep end.

Have a nice day.
 
Mason66 said:
That is where you go off the deep end.

Have a nice day.
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You can consider it crazy, but this process exists and has been used for longer than you've been around to badmouth it.
 
Unrepresented said:
You can consider it crazy, but this process exists and has been used for longer than you've been around to badmouth it.
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No, where you're at crazy is just a little tiny blimp in the rear view mirror.

I'm just glad you're not in charge of anything.
 
Gill said:
No, where you're at crazy is just a little tiny blimp in the rear view mirror.

I'm just glad you're not in charge of anything.
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My vote next week counts as much as yours.:D
 
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