Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons, internal communications

Cryptic said:

The Mayor of Houston has ordered pastors to turn over sermons and other documents pertaining to their positions on gender identity, the mayor, and homosexuality.

City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons | Fox News

Sure, the order was made in response to litigation. At the same time, all but the most dimwitted realize that Americans enjoy very broadly defined freedoms of religion and speech- whether they are a church or Hustler magazine with their famous / infamous satires. In short, even if the material is ordered to be provided, what exactly can the Mayor or the litigants do with it? In addition, I think laws forbidding pastors from taking open political stances in return for tax exemption are a federal matter, not a local matter.

Things are getting pretty maoist in Houston. I hope the pastors in question tell the mayor to uhmmm..... well *&%O(

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Redress said:

First, here is an actual news story as opposed the the opinion piece you posted: City subpoenas pastors' sermons in equal rights ordinance case - Houston Chronicle

Not sure how freedom of speech or religion is relevant here since the subpoena only asks for publicly made comments of the churches. Kinda hard to claim suppression of speech to ask what they already said in public.

Your opinion piece is also dishonest. The language about bathroom usage was removed before the bill was passed, and was always specific to transgender people, not any one: Mayor drops bathroom provision from nondiscrimination ordinance - Houston Chronicle

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Redress said:

First, here is an actual news story as opposed the the opinion piece you posted: City subpoenas pastors' sermons in equal rights ordinance case - Houston Chronicle

Not sure how freedom of speech or religion is relevant here since the subpoena only asks for publicly made comments of the churches. Kinda hard to claim suppression of speech to ask what they already said in public.

Your opinion piece is also dishonest. The language about bathroom usage was removed before the bill was passed, and was always specific to transgender people, not any one: Mayor drops bathroom provision from nondiscrimination ordinance - Houston Chronicle

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AliHajiSheik said:

If the government has a case to make, then they can compile evidence themselves. Asking a church, regardless of affiliation or beliefs for documentation of what was said in that church is offensive. How does something said in a church discriminate anyway?

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nota bene said:

Yes, the provision was dropped, and Mayor Parker then Tweeted, ""To my trans sisters/brothers: you're still fully protected in Equal Rights Ordinance. We're simply removing language that singled you out. -A." Mayor drops bathroom provision from nondiscrimination ordinance - Houston Chronicle

Why would the City of Houston need to review sermons? This makes me a little uneasy.

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Redress said:

Dunno why. Could be as simple as a rumor that one church was suggesting falsifying petition signatures. No one is saying, nor are they likely to. A subpoena is not an accusation of wrongdoing, it is not intimidation as suggested, and in fact the process to subpoena documents for any court cases is pretty trivial and done in pretty much all civil cases or legal cases where facts are disputed. If one side thinks the documents could, possibly, help there case, they will subpoena them.

Now I will suggest that the subpoena process could definately be improved, though I would not be surprised if such changes would be too expensive to implement and cause as many problems as they solve. Under the law now, there is nothing at all wrong with subpoenaing documents.

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apdst said:

A subpoena has to be backed up with probable cause.

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Redress said:

First, here is an actual news story as opposed the the opinion piece you posted: City subpoenas pastors' sermons in equal rights ordinance case - Houston Chronicle

Not sure how freedom of speech or religion is relevant here since the subpoena only asks for publicly made comments of the churches. Kinda hard to claim suppression of speech to ask what they already said in public.

Your opinion piece is also dishonest. The language about bathroom usage was removed before the bill was passed, and was always specific to transgender people, not any one: Mayor drops bathroom provision from nondiscrimination ordinance - Houston Chronicle

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Redress said:

Document please.

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Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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Redress said:

The way both sides in a legal case compile evidence is through the use of subpoenas. You did not know that?

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Redress said:

Dunno why. Could be as simple as a rumor that one church was suggesting falsifying petition signatures. No one is saying, nor are they likely to. A subpoena is not an accusation of wrongdoing, it is not intimidation as suggested, and in fact the process to subpoena documents for any court cases is pretty trivial and done in pretty much all civil cases or legal cases where facts are disputed. If one side thinks the documents could, possibly, help there case, they will subpoena them.

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AliHajiSheik said:

My question is intended to find out how any words spoken in a church can be the basis of any discrimination case. Actions? Perhaps. Do you often ignore questions when responding to someone?

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Tony Perkins, the head of the Family Research Council, said pastors around the nation should rally around the Houston ministers.

“The state is breaching the wall of separation between church and state,” Perkins told me. ‘Pastors need to step forward and challenge this across the country. I’d like to see literally thousands of pastors after they read this story begin to challenge government authorities – to dare them to come into their churches and demand their sermons.”

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Where there is no vision, the people perish. Hello, this is Tony Perkins with the Family Research Council in Washington. Americans have been shocked to see the brutality and barbarism of the Islamic militants of ISIS, and they've been stunned by the revelations that radicalized Americans have joined their ranks and taken up their cause. Pundits and politicians alike have publicly pondered the question as to how young Americans can be sucked into such an evil venture. While it may be troubling, the answer is not hard. Radical secularism that has driven the defining characteristics of our Western culture, our Judeo-Christian heritage, from our schools, our entertainment and even our government has left in its place a void, a vacuum. And we should know from experience that a vacuum will be filled by something. Without a creedal vision that a society can unify around, the people, the nation, will perish. Unless we are content to allow ISIS or some other radical belief system to fill the void left by secularism, we must rediscover America's founding, Christ-centered vision. - See more at: Perkins: Separation Of Church And State Helps ISIS | Right Wing Watch

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Redress said:

Document please.

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apdst said:

Are you serious?

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Subpoenas are issued under a much lower standard than the probable cause standard used for search warrants. A subpoena can be used so long as there is any reasonable possibility that the materials or testimony sought will produce information relevant to the general subject of the investigation.

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Lutherf said:

Sadly, I'm not surprised that someone would be unfamiliar with this.

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Deuce said:

https://ssd.eff.org/your-computer/govt/subpoenas

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Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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AliHajiSheik said:

If the government has a case to make, then they can compile evidence themselves. Asking a church, regardless of affiliation or beliefs for documentation of what was said in that church is offensive. How does something said in a church discriminate anyway?

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apdst said:

Posted by Lutherf:



That's the 4th Amendment of The Constitution, BTW. I doubt you recognized it.

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apdst said:

It's called, "tyranny". Liberal tyranny, to be more precise.

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Lutherf said:

Impossible. Only Right Wing Nut Jobs are tyrants. Enlightened Intellectual Liberals are, by definition (theirs) the polar opposite of a tyrant.

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