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‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers[W:702:1041]

Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Neomalthusian said:
Well I'm not sure where this became about free trade agreements. The conversation seemed like it was about unions.
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Well the tie that binds the two is that free trade is a union killing tool. As the unions raise working standards here, implementing free trade basically says well just run to where there are no standards.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Well the tie that binds the two is that free trade is a union killing tool. As the unions raise working standards here, implementing free trade basically says well just run to where there are no standards.
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To me, free trade means that the unions priced themselves out of a job and the government taxed themselves out of revenue.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Meister said:
To me, free trade means that the unions priced themselves out of a job and the government taxed themselves out of revenue.
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Kind of. Its easy to be priced out of a job union or not when your country's trade policy sets the stage for untariffed trade with countries who have basically slave labor. I remember the downfall of the north as companies fled to the south. The both bitched and the south did victory laps. Then a lot of those jobs in the south fled to mexico and the south bitched and mexico did victory laps..(just as Ross Perot said would happen). Then those jobs left mexico for India and china. And now chinas getting pissed at Vietnam for under pricing their labor. It is a race to the bottom that's so bad that we are now doing business with the very same countries and political ideologies we were taught were living at 665... Right next door to Satan.

With free trade policies businesses are fleeing to the countries that now how to forcibly make sure their workers do exactly what their told and told for how much no questions asked and our politicians are setting a stage with free trade that says we should be more like them to compete.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Well the tie that binds the two is that free trade is a union killing tool. As the unions raise working standards here, implementing free trade basically says well just run to where there are no standards.
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You're blaming the government for allowing trade and failing to be protectionistic, instead of blaming the labor cartels for directly making domestic labor non-competitive.

Unions cannot survive in competitive markets. Like all cartels, they require monopoly power and, often times, accommodation by the government in maintaining it.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers[W:702:1041]

stonewall50 said:
Are you actually suggesting it is UNIONS that make the education system in those states better???? How about we go with property tax for $500 Alex. Or the burden on the education system? You just highlighted one of the major issues why most people are ignorant when it comes to education: attributing a single problem as the cause for an issue, or in your case a single solution for the success.

Did I say it was the only problem? No. You seem to be saying that the unions are making the education system better. They aren't. One word: tenure. Something that protects bad teachers from being fired. How is that ok?

http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

Just take a read about tenure. Like I said...it is a travesty. And it isn't so much that all teachers in a union are bad. It is that the union doesn't exist for education. It doesn't exist to help kids. It exists to protect teachers. And it has now turned to protecting BAD teachers.

I would be ok if unions policed themselves and removed bad teachers, but they do not. Not even close.
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It is the administrators job to actually show up and do an evaluation and if he/she does not like what he/she sees, it is administrations job to write that in the teacher's evaluation. It's really pretty pathetic to blame the unions for administration not doing their job properly.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Kind of. Its easy to be priced out of a job union or not when your country's trade policy sets the stage for untariffed trade with countries who have basically slave labor. I remember the downfall of the north as companies fled to the south. The both bitched and the south did victory laps. Then a lot of those jobs in the south fled to mexico and the south bitched and mexico did victory laps..(just as Ross Perot said would happen). Then those jobs left mexico for India and china. And now chinas getting pissed at Vietnam for under pricing their labor. It is a race to the bottom that's so bad that we are now doing business with the very same countries and political ideologies we were taught were living at 665... Right next door to Satan.

With free trade policies businesses are fleeing to the countries that now how to forcibly make sure their workers do exactly what their told and told for how much no questions asked and our politicians are setting a stage with free trade that says we should be more like them to compete.
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These anecdotes you posted only point out how free trade is raising all ships. Unemployment has not gone through the roof in any western democracies despite freer trade, and conditions for workers in third world countries has also improved because production is inevitably lower, and poorer, under 'slave labor' conditions.

If it was as you claim there would be fewer working in the US, and yet the claims by the Obama administration is that unemployment is dropping and recovery is on the way. Both cannot be correct.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Neomalthusian said:
You're blaming the government for allowing trade and failing to be protectionistic, instead of blaming the labor cartels for directly making domestic labor non-competitive.

Unions cannot survive in competitive markets. Like all cartels, they require monopoly power and, often times, accommodation by the government in maintaining it.
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If by competitive market you mean slave/prison and child labor... what labor can compete? This is what you want us to compete with. Such ****ed up methods isn't competing, it's beyond cheating.

I want the world's standards to rise. While you want our standards to drop to the worst possible levels the world can offer and call it "competing".
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
If by competitive market you mean slave/prison and child labor... what labor can compete? This is what you want us to compete with. Such ****ed up methods isn't competing, it's beyond cheating.
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I don't mean slave/prison/child labor. That's misleading vividness. Unions aren't trying to stifle competition with slave labor. They're trying to stifle competition with every other form of labor, and even within their own ranks at times (seniority).

I want the world's standards to rise. While you want our standards to drop to the worst possible levels the world can offer and call it "competing".
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No, that's a straw man. I believe you want the world's standards to rise, and I also want that, but I believe the methods you think work actually just end up backfiring. Just because unions helped eradicate serious abuse once upon a time doesn't mean the pendulum hasn't swung back too far in the other direction.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Grant said:
These anecdotes you posted only point out how free trade is raising all ships. Unemployment has not gone through the roof in any western democracies despite freer trade, and conditions for workers in third world countries has also improved because production is inevitably lower, and poorer, under 'slave labor' conditions.

If it was as you claim there would be fewer working in the US, and yet the claims by the Obama administration is that unemployment is dropping and recovery is on the way. Both cannot be correct.
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In spite of. Not because of. Without these free trade policies our meagerly growing economy would be an exploding economy. Ask anyone we are supposedly "free trading" with that we are in massive trade deficits with because of their economically protectionist policies such as trade barriers of imports and currency manipulation.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
In spite of. Not because of. Without these free trade policies our meagerly growing economy would be an exploding economy.
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Who would buy your goods is the rest of the world was poor? The American worker has less take home pay than a decade ago but that has more to do with too much government than overseas labor.

Ask anyone we are supposedly "free trading" with that we are in massive trade deficits with because of their economically protectionist policies such as trade barriers of imports and currency manipulation.
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If what you say is true these policies can only hurt them over the long term. This is especially true of currency manipulation because it creates a dishonest market, which is always unsustainable..
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
If by competitive market you mean slave/prison and child labor... what labor can compete? This is what you want us to compete with. Such ****ed up methods isn't competing, it's beyond cheating.

I want the world's standards to rise. While you want our standards to drop to the worst possible levels the world can offer and call it "competing".
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Which 'slave/prison and child labor' countries are you referring to, and what evidence can you offer? World living standards are rising, and have been for many years.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Grant said:
Which 'slave/prison and child labor' countries are you referring to, and what evidence can you offer? World living standards are rising, and have been for many years.
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Laogai

Then of course Foxconn putting up fences for their dormitory workers to keep them in the compound and then putting up nets to catch the depressed jumpers.
 
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Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Laogai Then of course Foxconn putting up fences for their dormitory workers to keep them in the compound and then putting up nets to catch the depressed jumpers.
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And you see a lot of imports coming from Laogai? Yes, I read of Foxconn and they have companies all over the world with another coming to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, as well as putting $10 million into R&D at Carnegie Mellon University. Here's an article regarding that investment. Things are slowly changing from Mao's Communist China. Foxconn Sends a Manufacturing Message with New Pennsylvania Plant | Brookings Institution
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Grant said:
And you see a lot of imports coming from Laogai? Yes, I read of Foxconn and they have companies all over the world with another coming to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, as well as putting $10 million into R&D at Carnegie Mellon University. Here's an article regarding that investment. Things are slowly changing from Mao's Communist China. Foxconn Sends a Manufacturing Message with New Pennsylvania Plant | Brookings Institution
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Yeah. They've been changing at our expense for quite some time. Time for OUR government to consider OUR economic concerns first and foremost.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
In spite of. Not because of. Without these free trade policies our meagerly growing economy would be an exploding economy. Ask anyone we are supposedly "free trading" with that we are in massive trade deficits with because of their economically protectionist policies such as trade barriers of imports and currency manipulation.
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I'm not saying free trade agreements have been universally great for our country across the board, but when has protectionism ever produced an exploding economy? When has an economic superpower abruptly turned protectionist and enjoyed an exploding economy thereafter?
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Neomalthusian said:
I'm not saying free trade agreements have been universally great for our country across the board, but when has protectionism ever produced an exploding economy? When has an economic superpower abruptly turned protectionist and enjoyed an exploding economy thereafter?
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Since we've boosted trade with China we've adopted free trade while they've opted for protectionism. They put tariffs on US goods like cars coming into their country and then dump goods on us of items that are not only crap but destroy an economic sector for a while.

This is what happened o Solyndra. They had a solid business plan where the production of solar panels were based on X amount of watts created per x amount of dollars. China flooded the market with solar panels that were predominantly garbage but it drove the price per watt down way below Solyndra's business plan which not only killed them but really set back the sector hard as their trash solar panels then were predominantly flawed but the economic damage had been done.

But back to your point, we shouldn't cheat like china does with dumping and that ****ing currency manipulation they've been illegally doing forever but tariff their goods at least until they stop cheating with these methods. We looked the other way and went free trade and along with cheating, China went protectionism and their economy exploded.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Yeah. They've been changing at our expense for quite some time. Time for OUR government to consider OUR economic concerns first and foremost.
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Yes, they have been changing and will continue to change as people become better educated and more economically sophisticated. Would you have countries put up trade barriers in the hope of changing working conditions in other countries?
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Since we've boosted trade with China we've adopted free trade while they've opted for protectionism. They put tariffs on US goods like cars coming into their country and then dump goods on us of items that are not only crap but destroy an economic sector for a while.

This is what happened o Solyndra. They had a solid business plan where the production of solar panels were based on X amount of watts created per x amount of dollars. China flooded the market with solar panels that were predominantly garbage but it drove the price per watt down way below Solyndra's business plan which not only killed them but really set back the sector hard as their trash solar panels then were predominantly flawed but the economic damage had been done.

But back to your point, we shouldn't cheat like china does with dumping and that ****ing currency manipulation they've been illegally doing forever but tariff their goods at least until they stop cheating with these methods. We looked the other way and went free trade and along with cheating, China went protectionism and their economy exploded.
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Solyndra only demonstrated how people with powerful positions in government believe they can operate like experienced business people, despite not having any experience or knowledge of any industry whatsoever. It should stand as a monument to government interference and ignorance in the marketplace.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
This is what happened o Solyndra. They had a solid business plan where the production of solar panels were based on X amount of watts created per x amount of dollars. China flooded the market with solar panels that were predominantly garbage but it drove the price per watt down way below Solyndra's business plan which not only killed them but really set back the sector hard as their trash solar panels then were predominantly flawed but the economic damage had been done.
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Thats a bit inaccurate. Solyndra went under because the price of polysilicon collapse due to increase manufacture of it, primarily in the US. Solyndra's design, while more expensive, maximizes output while using much less polysilicon as traditional flat panels.

So if their business plan was designed that a raw material would always remain exorbitantly high and relied on that to hold on firm to market share, it was not a good business plan at all.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Grant said:
Yes, they have been changing and will continue to change as people become better educated and more economically sophisticated. Would you have countries put up trade barriers in the hope of changing working conditions in other countries?
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The primary goal of tariffs is to not gain advantage in the trade with other countries but to mitigate the loss created by what can be considered cheating methods of the trading partner. So no, not to engineer change of another country but to tariff your trade partner to the level that you don't tariff them out of trade but levels the cost to give your labor a fair chance. Germany does this with what's called the VAT tax or Value Added Tax.

If a country does change to lower the tariff of their goods exported to us... so be it. Not our goal.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Grant said:
Solyndra only demonstrated how people with powerful positions in government believe they can operate like experienced business people, despite not having any experience or knowledge of any industry whatsoever. It should stand as a monument to government interference and ignorance in the marketplace.
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solyndra did nothing different that the zillion other companies that got the grants as well. They were just politicized. That is the only difference. Politicized in a twofer gain in that the GOP could bitch about Obama and also felate the oil companies that feed them.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

Fishstyx said:
Thats a bit inaccurate. Solyndra went under because the price of polysilicon collapse due to increase manufacture of it, primarily in the US. Solyndra's design, while more expensive, maximizes output while using much less polysilicon as traditional flat panels.

So if their business plan was designed that a raw material would always remain exorbitantly high and relied on that to hold on firm to market share, it was not a good business plan at all.
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Of course there should be some flex in your expectations of your material goods but being held responsible for a collapse... that's not something that business plans generally can predict.

Here's a Forbes article on the chinese dumping that hurt solyndra

 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
solyndra did nothing different that the zillion other companies that got the grants as well. They were just politicized. That is the only difference. Politicized in a twofer gain in that the GOP could bitch about Obama and also felate the oil companies that feed them.
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I think you are mistaken as to the issue. The problem with Solyndra is that it is an example of how A) governments are lousy investment capitalists from an ROI perspective and B) that is not least because they tend to give money to their friends.
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
Of course there should be some flex in your expectations of your material goods but being held responsible for a collapse... that's not something that business plans generally can predict.

Here's a Forbes article on the chinese dumping that hurt solyndra

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Are you saying cost fluctuations in raw materials aren't something that business plans should reflect?
 
Re: ‘Pressure tactics’: Unions publishing names of nonunion workers

poweRob said:
solyndra did nothing different that the zillion other companies that got the grants as well. They were just politicized. That is the only difference. Politicized in a twofer gain in that the GOP could bitch about Obama and also felate the oil companies that feed them.
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A zillion other companies? Then the names of these companies should be made public and explained how giving them public money has benefited the taxpayer. Is Barack Obama too modest to pint out his zillions of business successes?
 
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